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Frogman

Advice for shallow water angler moving out to the deep stuff

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1 hour ago, Scarborough817 said:

perfect thank you 

I call that type of point a secondary point . It doesnt extend very far . Just a small one in the creek  . The large main lake points are  simple to find .

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If it were me fishing deep in a new lake, and if that lake had a creek bed, I would start there.  The bed gives the bass a path to follow, has access to shallow and deep water, and will probably have some kind of cover in it.  The best thing I like about creek beds is that they are long.  You can anchor above them and work the bait back right down the center.

As for the difference between cover and structure, I keep it very simple. Structure will withstand the test of time and remain the same.  Cover will rot, die out, or be changed by water level, and weather.

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16 hours ago, deep said:

 

Structure: The bottom of the lake with some unusual features that distinguish it from the surrounding bottom area. (Buck Perry)

 

Structure is the bottom of the lake. If you turned over a smooth aluminium bowl and beat it with a heavy object, the resulting bumps and depressions on the inside of the bowl would be comparable to the high spots, ridges, and depressions found on the bottom of structured lakes. (Bill Murphy)

 

All I'm saying is the whole lake bottom is composed of different structures, separated by breaklines. Some structures hold fish certain times of the year, some hold fish all year round, some are rarely/ never visited by fish.

 

 

 

It would follow then, that the bottom of the lake without any unusual features to distinguish it from the surrounding bottom area, would have no structure...this also takes care of the misleading/incorrect Murphy book statement - lol :P

 

A couple examples straight from one of Buck's articles showing a lot of lake bottom (and some "cover," i.e., 'breaks'), but 'No Structure' according to Buck.

 

Ex1.JPG.136b071cf2f774fa7c12a34ba2b425f5.JPG

 

Ex2.JPG.ed62132d9fdfb9177127c4334867d00c.JPG

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@Team9nine

 

I concede 10-A and 11-A would be easier to fish.

 

How do you fish a bowl-shaped pond?

How about a reservoir with silted in channels? The breaklines are still there, just (a lot) less pronounced.

 

Do you consider a "flat" a structure?

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Seems like everybody is saying close to the same thing...with just different terminology. Good thing Bass don't care..lol

 

I like these screen shots. I'll add one. I fished this creek yesterday, it's fairly popular at this lake. I was pretty much skunked until I hit the spot where the creek bed pulls away from the bank. That part of the flat where the "V" is just to the left of the 600 is where I caught 3 fish in about 5 casts...nothing huge, big one was pushing 3lbs..didn't catch another fish in that creek. Even though this spot is not out away from the bank, it has deep water access. These little spots are golden IMO.

Screenshot_2017-11-18-08-18-26-1.png

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One of my favorite "structures"  😎

Fog.jpg

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When I first started posting and reading posts on bass fishing forums like Bass Insider the terminology used was like a foreign language. The fact That I have fished all over the country, Canada and Mexico should have exposed me to some of this local or regional jargon but it still confused me  and continues to do so at times.

Saying structure isn't structure if it doesn't attract bass at that moment is more than confusing. Calling cover structure because of it's location is also subjective and tends to be confusing. Pitting a old technology pioneer Buck Perry against another from a later generation like Bill Murphy is counter productive, both offer good insights into bass fishing.

Looking at contours without considering water temperature and fish depths is a  partial study, but helpful in focusing your effects in productive areas. You can have lots of fishing holding structure with cover without any bass there if it's too deep under a thermocline or in an area without a prey source. Lots of factors to consider that can't be learned without being on the water.

Learning to find bass on lakes like fig 10B & 11B isn't easy, 10A& 11A are very easy and common knowledge with today's bass anglers. Labeling 11B no structure is more than confusing.

I have caught hundreds of bass off of banks like 10B or nothing banks when wind has pushed bait onto those banks. Isolated standing timber in 11B would be worth fishing because it gives bass several depths to use and a place for bait hide.

When studying maps look for areas that have several structure elements close together.

My favorite styles of structure are small flat areas located on steep breaks and saddle areas located between higher areas, add both together and it's worth checking.

Tom 

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1 hour ago, deep said:

@Team9nine

 

I concede 10-A and 11-A would be easier to fish.

 

How do you fish a bowl-shaped pond?

How about a reservoir with silted in channels? The breaklines are still there, just (a lot) less pronounced.

 

Do you consider a "flat" a structure?

How do you fish a bowl-shaped pond?

 

Depends somewhat on depth, water clarity, etc., but in most cases there will be no true structure, but you almost always have breaks and breaklines. In shallower ponds, "cover" becomes the defacto 'home' that replaces the depth component. The 'home', or the area, where the fish spend the greater part of their time is under the weeds, brush, or 'under-cuts' in the bank, etc.. Breaks and breaklines become your areas of initial concentration, along with the deepest water areas of cover. Every pond will be a bit different, but I fish several currently that fit the above description.

 

How about a reservoir with silted in channels? The breaklines are still there, just (a lot) less pronounced.

 

Not a whole lot changes in the case of a silted in reservoir. You still work the features (structure, breaks, and breaklines) as far out into the deep water as possible, but no deeper than recognizable features allow. You stop at the last recognizable features. Even small, less pronounced breaklines (to us), are easily followed (and probably very obvious) to a fish. I see this a lot in small dish bowl ponds where a small "trail" across a flat only inches deeper than the surrounding water is what the fish use to move into and away from some shorelines.

 

Do you consider a "flat" a structure?

 

No, I don't. 

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Yes, my favorite structure is a small flat located on steep banks.

Tom

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16 minutes ago, WRB said:

Yes, my favorite structure is a small flat located on steep banks.

Tom

 

Good for you B) Thanks for sharing...

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I have read numerous articles and listened to lots of pro's make the claim LMB need a physical structure element to navigate from point A to point B. They must follow channel breaks for example to migrate up and down the lake or big bays and arms.

It's a foundation of bass migration is based on that I don't believe. Will they follow breaks, yes. Will they swim from one side of the lake across deep to other side, yes. How do you think the bass miles off shore got there? The answer is they swam there across water without any break to follow.

Bass are ambush feeders so they prefer locating where structure and or cover provides a place to feed. Deep off shore structure provides funnel zones that baitfish gather and current or wind pushes plankton for baitfish to feed on, that is where you want to fish...where the active bass are located.

Tom

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I don't think anyone is stating absolute needs or truths in regards to how, when or where bass move or feed. I know I'm not foolish enough to believe such things exist. However, we all have our methods, experiences and learnings that we use successfully. You have stated yours at length and in great detail, and I certainly read and respect that, even if I don't completely agree with some of it. However, the OP's question was in regards to what we thought to be the quickest way to assess and locate deep water bass and be successful. To that end, IMHO, finding and fishing obvious structural elements and related breaks/cover and breaklines/edges (whatever terms you prefer to use) is a pretty simple and straightforward approach that doesn't take years of experience or knowledge to begin putting to work. A little map study and some basic understanding will get you started rather quickly.

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You guys complicate everything;)

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Ish creek, Navonics map shot posted by TnRiver46 on the Tennessee River (lake?) is interesting.

Looks like a spawning area that would hold year around bass populations. The canyon leading into the main (lake) river doesn't look as good to me as the island with it's points and spawn coves, the end towards the main lake has 2 good looking points close together and the opposite end there is a bench and at least 2 humps in 15' with a saddle connecting them near the buoy marker , very interesting creek arm area.

Tom

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10 hours ago, WRB said:

Ish creek, Navonics map shot posted by TnRiver46 on the Tennessee River (lake?) is interesting.

Looks like a spawning area that would hold year around bass populations. The canyon leading into the main (lake) river doesn't look as good to me as the island with it's points and spawn coves, the end towards the main lake has 2 good looking points close together and the opposite end there is a bench and at least 2 humps in 15' with a saddle connecting them near the buoy marker , very interesting creek arm area.

Tom

Thanks, ish creek is definitely an extremely popular spot to see bass boats (and crappie). I see people posted up where the creek goes into the river all the time, maybe they are fishing the obvious as opposed to the hidden gems 

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Ok, it's a screen shot of the river not a riverine lake on the Tennessee River.

Rivers have constant flowing current that is faster close to shore, slower in deeper water.

So whenever a side creek channel interrupts the river current flow creating eddies fish of all types will be located there. This makes Ish creek even more of interest to bass and remember crappie are a food source for bass, both species will use the water protected from current to spawn. Pre spawn bass will move near those protected areas located near deep water. I don't see any reason for the Largemouth bass to leave Ish creek area, the Smallmouth may move into the inlet structure.

Tom

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Frogman, I looked for my old Eufaula paper map to send you a copy of, couldn't locate it, probably lost in the '94 earthquake like so many other things.

I recall the MLF program had a finals fished at Eufaula and fished the entire lake divided into 3 sections, the 1st being the lower 1/3rd. The contestants focused there effort very near the area I was recalling, except today the lake has lots of hydrilla it didn't have before. There wasn't any wood off shore back then, it was all rocks.

If you look at your map you see a big main channel swing moving away from the opposite shore that has a big flat area with multiple revines cutting through it and several humps about 200 to 300 yards off shore. I don't have a Eufaula map to reference, pure memory and getting foggy! If you post a map of that section, I will be glad to look at it and discuss it in detail.

Tom

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3 hours ago, WRB said:

Ok, it's a screen shot of the river not a riverine lake on the Tennessee River.

Rivers have constant flowing current that is faster close to shore, slower in deeper water.

So whenever a side creek channel interrupts the river current flow creating eddies fish of all types will be located there. This makes Ish creek even more of interest to bass and remember crappie are a food source for bass, both species will use the water protected from current to spawn. Pre spawn bass will move near those protected areas located near deep water. I don't see any reason for the Largemouth bass to leave Ish creek area, the Smallmouth may move into the inlet structure.

Tom

Well it's a screenshot of ft loudoun lake, the first reservoir on the Tennessee river proper (furthest upstream). It is a "lake" with good current though

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On 11/16/2017 at 8:53 PM, TnRiver46 said:

Canyons going into a river channel........ do you think those would hold big fish year round? I know where a bunch of those are. I fish them some but probably not enough. As you can see on the maps there are plenty to choose from.

 

IMG_1674.PNG

 

If I'm understanding your terminology, we refer to them as "side feeder stream cuts," and they are always very high on the list of places to check out on a reservoir.

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8 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

 

If I'm understanding your terminology, we refer to them as "side feeder stream cuts," and they are always very high on the list of places to check out on a reservoir.

I borrowed the terminology from WRB, when I read his "canyons going into a river channel" a couple dozens spots came to mind. Basically what used to be a creek going into a river and is now flooded is what I imagined. We don't use the term canyon in TN but they are all around. "Holler"(hollow) valley or gorge is what hillbillies call em

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:Copy_of_icon_thumleft: Makes sense - much more prevalent out west, both the water type and the terminology. However, I was surprised to see there are three state Canyon parks in Alabama which I never would have guessed. Either way, definitely worth checking out these areas.

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TNRiver46, I'm on fort loudoun all the time & the fishing has definitely been off.  I think the fall bite is late, but should be turning on soon.   Hopefully this weekend.

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12 hours ago, wakeeater said:

TNRiver46, I'm on fort loudoun all the time & the fishing has definitely been off.  I think the fall bite is late, but should be turning on soon.   Hopefully this weekend.

Cool dude, I think I recognize your screename from another site. I fished tellico today and got tiny bass 

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