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What is the thought process behind the micro guides?

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I was just curious what the thought process is behind the design of micro guides? Seems like a lot of rods are going that way and that most fisherman have a strong opinion on them. Is there a specific type of rod this design would be best for?

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What is the thought process behind the micro guides?

 

Sell more rods.

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3 hours ago, moguy1973 said:

Good read for anyone considering micro guide rods. 

Tom

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From the article:

Quote

For an extra Scooby snack, another benefit when using braid and casting into the wind, your line will be less likely to wrap around one of the guides.

I'm gonna disagree with this.  It's more of a problem in the micro guide rods I've used.  I think it's the shape of the round guide and small single foot.

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It all depends on the actual guides and the implementation. Keeping the guide train as light as possible helps maintain as much of the blanks inherent properties as possible. The optimum guide size is always a matter of opinion and there is no one size fits all. 

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The sarcastic and un-helpful statement about selling more rods falls apart when one looks into the history of micro guides and finds out they started in the rod guide industry, not the finished rod industry.  They have only gotten onto non-custom rods in the last few years.  If the statement were "in order to sell more guides (we are in business to make a profit, just as everyone is)   we are offering these new guides called micros which have some definite advantages over our old stuff," then it would be accurate.

 

The advantage of micros, and be careful about defining a micro because there is no "official" criteria for micros, is twofold: 1.  They are lighter and therefore make the rod more sensitive.  This is in-arguable.  It is basic science-lighter means more sensitive, all else being equal.  2. They cast longer distances.  I think it is true, but I have a lot of rods built without micros that cast like crazy.   They were initially, as I remember it, sold based on casting distance.

 

The introduction of so many great braid lines make them practical for most fishing techniques.  They simply don't  work well with the higher test monos and FC's.  They work fine with monos and FC's up to about 8 pound test.  I'm sure I'll get a disagreement with that statement, but it's true, or very close.

 

They make the most sense where sensitivity is a prime objective, like finesse.

 

They have disadvantages in the area of icing and knot passage.

 

I have settled on 4.5mm "micros" on spin, 5 on cast.  I see no significant advantage in going smaller.

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Ill take micros on all future rod purchases if possible. Less line slap hardly ever get a wrapped guide. I dont seem to bend a guide or get the guides stuck putting them into vehicle like I do on my "regular" sized guides.

Quantum Smoke rod was available in both micro and standard size. Ordered a 7' M/F got sent a standard size guide smoke rod and the difference in weight/balance to my 7' M/F micro smoke rod was quite noticeable. Sent the standard one back.

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Lew's also has a micro-wave guide on some of their spinning rods.  It makes that really big guide nearest to the reel into a micro guide while maintaining proper line geometry coming off the reel since the spool hangs lower on spinning rods than on casting rods.

 

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11 hours ago, reason said:

What is the thought process behind the micro guides?

 

Sell more rods.

 

I see no real added benefit in using micro guides versus high quality normal sized guides. Do these ''micro guides'' help you cast further? Increase hookup percentage? I doubt these micro guides do that. Adding micro guides looks like a good way to justify a higher price tag for a custom rod which I am sure the custom rod builders like.

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2 hours ago, MickD said:

The sarcastic and un-helpful statement about selling more rods falls apart when one looks into the history of micro guides and finds out they started in the rod guide industry, not the finished rod industry. 

 

 

I'm not sure how "there were micro guides before there were rods with micro guides" disproves my original statement, and your assumption that I was separating custom from production rods is incorrect. Helpful? 

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19 hours ago, soflabasser said:

 

I see no real added benefit in using micro guides versus high quality normal sized guides. Do these ''micro guides'' help you cast further? Increase hookup percentage? I doubt these micro guides do that. Adding micro guides looks like a good way to justify a higher price tag for a custom rod which I am sure the custom rod builders like.

My micro guide Veritas outcasts my standard guide Veritas. So there you go, they do help with casting distance

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16 minutes ago, moguy1973 said:

My micro guide Veritas outcasts my standard guide Veritas. So there you go, they do help with casting distance

Is that using the same reel or identical reels? Only way to be sure it's the guides.

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Taking weight off the blank out toward the tip makes a rod more crisp, responsive, better balanced and more sensitive. These are the reasons I use micro guides on my custom builds and on the vast majority of factory rods I buy. I do believe they aid in casting distance in most cases but that doesn't really figure in to why I use them. They aren't great for all scenarios but I can promise you they aren't a gimmick. I've been using them since before they were ever offered on any factory rods.

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2 hours ago, moguy1973 said:

My micro guide Veritas outcasts my standard guide Veritas. So there you go, they do help with casting distance

Are you using the same brand/size rod, reel, line, and lure or do you use different sized rods, reels, line, lure and that is why you get one casting further than the other? You can keep using the micro guides if you like them but I won't since I have no need for them. I do just fine with my current spinning and baitcasting setups and see no added benefit from micro guides. As for casting distance I cast +100 feet with certain lures and even that is a excessive cast since I tend to catch the majority of my fish closer than 100 feet. For surf casting +100 foot cast are beneficial yet I see no surf casters using micro guides and instead they use traditional guides.

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A lot of though should go into rod guide spacing. Micro guides are lower to the rod blank therefor the 1st and 2nd micro guide becomes critical where they are placed in reference to high hig the reel spool is off the rod blank. Ideally the center line of the spoon is aligned with center of the rod guide, that is impossible so the guide needs to be placed where the angle of the line entering the guide is minimized to reduce friction and line slap. The balance of the guide train is spaced to minimize line contacting the rod rod blank during the cast.

Off the shelf rods can only use general guide spacing for the average reel, custom rods can take advantage to optimize guide location to maximize casting distance.

Anyone who thinks guide size and placement doesn't matter is naive to the facts illustrated in the MudHole link posted.

Tom

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On 1/2/2019 at 8:01 PM, reason said:

I'm not sure how "there were micro guides before there were rods with micro guides" disproves my original statement, and your assumption that I was separating custom from production rods is incorrect. Helpful? 

I did not state that.  Helpful? Not in my opinion.  I stand by my post.

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11 hours ago, MickD said:

I did not state that.  Helpful? Not in my opinion.  I stand by my post.

"...statement about selling more rods falls apart when one looks into the history of micro guides...they started in the rod guide industry, not the finished rod industry."

 

I too stand by your post. But I'm good with agreeing to disagree. There certainly is a place and time for guides of all manner of types and sizes, and sometimes that means smaller. But with anything else sporting goods aimed at the American male enthusiast, if some is good, more (or in this case less) is better, and then carried to the extreme.

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18 hours ago, soflabasser said:

Are you using the same brand/size rod, reel, line, and lure or do you use different sized rods, reels, line, lure and that is why you get one casting further than the other? You can keep using the micro guides if you like them but I won't since I have no need for them. I do just fine with my current spinning and baitcasting setups and see no added benefit from micro guides. As for casting distance I cast +100 feet with certain lures and even that is a excessive cast since I tend to catch the majority of my fish closer than 100 feet. For surf casting +100 foot cast are beneficial yet I see no surf casters using micro guides and instead they use traditional guides.

Yes, same length, power, action, reel.  Broke the standard guide one and replaced it with the micro guide one.  I can cast the same lure about 25' farther with the micro guides, or cast just as far with less effort. 

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The concept of micro guides casting further seems unrealistic to me. A smaller guide would probably cause for more friction with the line which would seemingly slow down the line as it exits the reel. Also, to all people that use micro guides, what would be your thoughts on the T-Wing system?

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20 hours ago, soflabasser said:

Are you using the same brand/size rod, reel, line, and lure or do you use different sized rods, reels, line, lure and that is why you get one casting further than the other? You can keep using the micro guides if you like them but I won't since I have no need for them. I do just fine with my current spinning and baitcasting setups and see no added benefit from micro guides. As for casting distance I cast +100 feet with certain lures and even that is a excessive cast since I tend to catch the majority of my fish closer than 100 feet. For surf casting +100 foot cast are beneficial yet I see no surf casters using micro guides and instead they use traditional guides.

Surf casters usually have heavy line and long leaders, that's why they never use micro guides. 

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4 hours ago, moguy1973 said:

Yes, same length, power, action, reel.  Broke the standard guide one and replaced it with the micro guide one.  I can cast the same lure about 25' farther with the micro guides, or cast just as far with less effort. 

Ok I will take your word on it. I still prefer standard high quality guides and will not get micro guides.

2 hours ago, Joshua van Wyk said:

Surf casters usually have heavy line and long leaders, that's why they never use micro guides. 

I have surf fished for over 20 years now and caught many species of fish from gobies to tiger sharks from the surf. Not all surf fishing needs heavy line but you will need a decent leader for many saltwater fish. Micro guides can give unnecessary problems when it comes to letting a leader knot pass through and that is not good if you need to use a long leader. As for bass fishing I still see no added benefit to using mirco guides when I can cast +100 feet with certain bass lures and even that is not needed since I catch most of my bass closer than that.

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2 hours ago, Looking for the big one said:

what would be your thoughts on the T-Wing system?

Sell more reels... :) 

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I don’t know all the new terminology, but the newer smaller guides definitely cast better than the old fashioned guides that were too big. And I don’t know what makes a guide “micro” but the tiny guides towards the top definitely work on softer parabolic rods, they just don’t make enough of these types of rods IMO.

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