Bob Lusk

Ah, I follow your thinking. Here's what I hear you saying. You are saying that the FLMB growth rates must be faster because the fish are larger? I agree with you to a point...and there are differences in the fish. One of the interesting things is to look at weight gain compared to actual weight to determine the rate. In other words, as a FLMB grows and ages, it gets larger, but its growth rate changes, as does a NLMB. One of the big factors...FLMB live considerably longer than NLMB. In the first two years, NLMB grow much faster than FLMB. But, in the third year, FLMB catch up and then pass the NLMB for a few years. Then, they are about even, although the FLMB has a distinct advantage by then. It has a bigger mouth. Bigger mouth extrapolates to bigger food. That 12 pound NLMB is huge, so it had everything it needed for its life. Did anyone age either of those fish? It would be interesting to know how old each one is. Also, is there any way to measure mouth size of both those fish? I would like to know. My experience has been that FLMB are finicky eaters, but eat much larger meals as they grow. In the lakes I manage, NLMB are more aggressive but are genetically limited as to how large they can grow. And, they don't live nearly as long. In my mind, that's not necessarily a reflection of growth rates as it is their genetic limitations for age compared to maximum size. Side by side, Florida bass will grow much larger. Another thing to keep in mind...once a bass reaches 16.5 inches in length, its world changes. At that point, a 2.7 pound bass can eat a 9 inch bass. It's food chain changes. The two fish you show are evidence that those two fish are exceptional..and different. Good stuff. On another note, I would love to hear your story about catch and release and BASS. Ray Scott and I are good friends and I have heard his story about it many times. I want to hear yours, too. Let's visit some time.

One last point and I gotta go....I'll check back in when there's more time. In order for a bass to grow to 14 inches, it MUST weigh 1 pound 7 ounces. It won't add bone structure without the flesh to support it. Therefore, if we are consistently catching 14 inch bass that weigh 1 lb 2 oz, it lost weight. If we are constantly observing bass which are obviously underweight, they are overcrowded for the available food chain. The "cure" is to reduce the competition from that particular size class of bass, increase the food chain or both. If we think we can stock more fish to increase the food chain, it won't take long to see it doesn't work. But, we can fertilize (if it makes sense), start a feeding program or both. That increases the forage fish crops. But, if we reduce the numbers of big mouths while increasing the lake's ability to grow more fish, we are being good fisheries managers. That process works well, so long as you know how to read the fish. And, most everyone can look at a fat, healthy bass and know it is growing the same as we look at s skinny bass and know something is wrong. The days of "throw back the little ones and let them grow" is over in all but newly stocked lakes. Have a great few days. I'm off to North Carolina for my regular consulting gig.

WRB, I put the relative weights in the text of the answer. Here's relative weights for largemouth bass. 10" should weigh 10 oz. 12" bass should be 12 oz. 14" is 1 lb, 7 oz. 16" is 2 lb 4 oz, 18 is 3 lb 4 oz and so on. As a matter of fact, if you guys will click on "Fishing Articles" on the tool bar on this website, then click on "Fish and Lake Management" you will find a number of good articles. One of those has the complete Length/Weight chart in it. I choose not to evaluate FLMB differently than NLMB. There are several reasons I don't. First, when I evaluate the fishery of a lake, I am looking at the population as a whole. I see relative weights of bass as one piece of the puzzle. If I don't know the lake, the first thing I look at is habitat. Is the habitat conducive to all species we want or need? Then, I look at the fish population. Although body shape is different between pure strain Florida bass and native strains of bass, it's more important to me to see how the entire population lives in their respective communities. One important fact to keep in mind. The Wr, or relative weight, of any given fish is a percentile. If a bass has a relative weight of 90, that means it is within 90% of what it should be. But, when we see most of the fish in that 90 Wr range, we compare to the rest of the population, especially the forage fish. That's another key part of the puzzle. More to your point, though...the relative weight chart for LMB was generated from data of more than 300,000 bass from all over the nation, weighed and measured. It's more of an indicator of bass population and I use it more as a reference point for that sample "snapshot" for that data for that day. Let me explain what I mean by that. Let's say you want to analyze a 10 acre lake and you use this chart. You catch, weigh and measure 50 bass tomorrow and compare them the "standard." Of those 50, all of them are in the 10-14" size class and all of them are underweight for this moment in time. From that information, you decide to harvest bass. Since the bass are underweight (you don't need a chart to see this, by the way), you decide on an aggressive harvest program and take out 250 bass over the next six months. Then, next Halloween, you catch 50 bass. Of those, 15 are larger than 14" and look like a deputy sheriff. 25 are in the 12-14" size class and are right in line with the Wr chart. The other 10 look just like their cousins from the original sample and those which were harvested. Now, you compare the Halloween fish with those caught in April and you can see the changes. At that point you see that the chart is reflecting the entire population. Even if the chart is inaccurate, it still gives you information to make decisions as long as you have something to compare your fish. I am from Texas...I don't work for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. I am a capitalist ...my job is to work with individual landowners to help them create and manage the lake(s) of their dreams. I do pay attention to the Share-A-Lunker program and I know Allan Forshage and David Campbell, the two key men who operate that program. I stay pretty busy and, although I should, I haven't paid enough attention to their genetic programs. Regarding your length to girth question...from my experiences, Florida largemouth bass definitely have a different shaped head. It's more slender compared to a native strain bass. But, I have seen some pretty amazing length to girth ratios. If a five pound native bass just ate a one pound gizzard shad, its ratio will be different than a five pound Florida that ate a one pound gizzard shad yesterday. Here's what I have learned. In a natural environment, the limiting factor in growth rates is always food. Always. It's not genetics, it's not the growing season, it's food. As a fisheries manager, a big part of my job is to make sure each size class of each species of fish has the food chain they need. If ever the food chain is lacking, bass don't grow. I have seen the same growth rates of bass in upstate New York that I see in Texas, once I figured out that food is the limiting factor. Here's one of "slap your self in the forehead" moments. I figured out that upstate New York has about 115-120 "perfect" bass growing days. "Perfect" is where the water temperature sits between 55 and 83 degrees. I came home to north Texas, looked at ten years worth of weather data and figured out that we, too, have about 115-120 "perfect" bass growing days. So, how was I, in Texas, able to grow double digit bass and my client in New York never saw a bass larger than 6.5 pounds? It hit me. In Texas, we have about 325 "perfect" bluegill growing days. New York has 115-120 and by the time the little sunfish spawn, it's halfway through that season. The main forage fish missed half their best time to grow! So, they make it up by growing exceptionally fast the rest of the year. That's a big reason why biologists in the north cuss bluegill. Bass grow slow due to a lack of food and bluegill grow so fast that they can quickly outgrow the mouth size of those bass. All that to say this...when we equalize the food chain, I contend bass grow just as fast anywhere on the planet within the bounds of the next limiting factor...water quality and temperature. I think you nailed the biggest reasons that bass grow so large in California even when we discount the obvious boost from trout stockings. Diversity and availability of food when the fish need it. Threadfin shad live in a different niche as bluegill which lives in a different niche than redear sunfish which have different requirments than crawfish. But, the common thread among all of them is that, collectively, they give bass a better chance to have what they need to eat, when they need it. I'll close this post with this thought. In the Share-A-Lunker program in Texas, most of the bass hover somewhere around the 13-14 pound size class. Does that mean these fish don't have the genetic propensity to have reached 20 pounds? No, I don't think so. If a baby bass is hatched, has the genetic potential to grow large and has all the other traits including a proclivity to be aggressive, was hatched in the first spawn of spring and survives astronomical odds against being eaten, the determining factor of its "final" weight lies strictly on what it has available to eat. For every day a bass goes without eating, there goes a day against its "potential." I believe those 13 pound bass may have reached their "real" weights because food was the limiting factor. So much for their potential. Remember, a bass grows every day of its life, until it begins its rapid decline, if that fish has all it needs in terms of habitat, food and genetics. With that, we can do all the genetic engineering in the world and I don't think it will matter as long as the food chain for that single bass is exactly what it needs, when it needs it. MUDDY...quite a few articles I have written are archived on this site. Other than that, I have written three books on different aspects of pond management and lots of articles for Pond Boss and other magazines. I took a quick look at the archives here and there's several articles written by different people which help define the concept of selective harvest. Selective harvest is a tool in the fish manager's tool box. That's all it is. We use it when we need it, then put it back in the box.

Yes, I think you are right on, if larger largemouth bass is your goal. Here's what happens. When a lake is seriously overcrowded with bass, 90% of the fish are the same size and the sunfish are large and old. As you harvest your overcrowded bass, several things happen. First, the sunfish and threadfin shad numbers begin to increase...temporarily. Then, you see a burst of growth of bass. They may jump from 10 inches to 12. Don't let that fool you into changing to catch and release. You're not done. If the lake has been home to slow growth bass for several years, you want to remove as many of those fish as you can. Their growth potential is limited. Don't worry, though...the lake won't let you remove too many too fast. It's the law of supply and demand. As "balance" begins to occur, you will see Wr begin to rise. Weigh and measure your caught bass, as many as you are willing to collect data on. The more you weigh and measure, the sooner you will see the effects of your management plan. The fish will tell you. Here's an example. The very first lake I managed was a 50 acre jewel along the Texas/Mexico border in 1983. The first time I saw the lake was dusk one day in late May that year. We drove up to the shores, sat still and watched 10" bass chase dragonflies. Literally. They jumped out of the water hoping they could catch a dragonfly. I bet I saw 150 bass do that in an hour before dark. The next day, we sampled the lake. Nothing but bass and they were seriously underweight. So, we stocked 1500 adult bluegill, fertilized the lake, started a feeding program for the bluegill and the guys started taking out bass. They ate bass every way they could...ceviche, bass kabobs, fried bass, bass enchiladas. Two years and 3,000 bass removed later, they were catching a few bass over two pounds. Then two and half years later, they were catching a couple of four pounders. By the end of the fourth year, the new lake record was 8 pounds. With spotted bass, remember that they won't grow nearly as large as a largemouth bass. So, if your goals involve growing bigger largemouth, keep harvesting the spotted bass and seriously underweight largemouth bass. It will work.... And Glenn....I usually disgorge a bass' lunch when I want YOU to see it. Have a great day, all. I have a date to show some fish to 140 first graders in my hometown in two hours. Gotta go.

Greetings fellas...home from a whirlwind trip and TV appearance on RFD-TV sponsored by Purina Mills. Dr. Mark Griffin, Ray Scott and I spent an hour last night talking about pond management. One thing nearest and dearest to our hearts is "harvest" of a pond. Since I'm new on your forum, I would like to thank you for the chance to toss my thoughts into your ring. First, to understand a harvest initiative, we must understand "balance." (Before I go far, I want you all to know that fisheries management is based on a handful of scientific principles surrounded by lots of common sense and art.) Balance, literally, is when a fishery has the proper habitat and its fishery reflects what it needs by providing a variety of species of fish in a variety of sizes...and all size classes are in good body condition. In fisheries management, we watch "relative weight" (Wr or Rw) very closely. For example, if you catch a 14" largemouth bass, it Wr should be close to 100. Here's what that means, literally. In order for a bass to grow to 14 inches of length, it had to weigh at least 1 lb, 7 oz. Here's a chart of Wr for bass, so you can see where I am going. A 12 inch bass should weigh 12 oz. A 16 should weigh 2 lb, 4 oz. An 18" bass should weigh 3 lb, 4 oz and so on. Plot the length and weight on an x-y graph and you will see a distinct curve. Use these "standard" weights as your comparison. Here's what typically happens in a well planned, well built and well stocked pond. The habitat is right, the proper numbers of forage fish are stocked, bass are added at the right time and we do the basic management practices. Bass grow, fast. Two inch fingerlings stocked the first year are well over 10 inches by the second year (south of the Mason-Dixon line). North of that line, LMB may make 8". By the end of the second year, our bass are pushing beyond an average of 14" long. The third year, bass are spawning (exceptions are in the north). By the end of the third year, we see young bass pushing that 8 inch mark. All this time, the food chain has continued to expand as the bass grow. But, at some point, normally in the third year, bass growth rates begin to slow down. That's our first hint that it's time to change. Up until now, we have practiced catch and release. Good management. As good managers, we are logging our catches, keeping good records of lengths and weights and plotting them on our little graph. Sometime in the third year, you will see the largest fish still growing exceptionally well, but those in the middle sizes seem to be leveling off. Soon, instead of seeing water teeming with little baitfish, we see mostly large baitfish. That's another sign...bass are beginning to get to the point where they are overeating their food chain. Watch the bass. By the end of the fourth year, you are seeing bass who have obviously leveled off and some are actually in the 85 percentile Wr. That means these fish are healthy, but have lost weight. When you begin to see a dominant size class of fish that is losing weight, it's time to initiate a harvest program. What typically happens, especially in ponds and small lakes, the larger bass continue to grow. The reason is simple...they have all they can eat. Keep in mind a 5 pound bass prefers a big meal. And if we have lots of young bass growing into the 10-12" class, our big bass have all they can eat. It's those middle bass that put a kink in the food chain. While the largest bass continue to gain weight, those middle size fish are losing ground. Those are the fish to harvest. As anglers, you can weigh and measure some bass, as long as you handle them properly. Look at the thread on handling...it's good. If you truly want to figure out when it's time for a harvest regime, weigh and measure some bass. The fish will tell you. Do I believe in Catch and Release? Absolutely, especially in larger, heavily fished public lakes. In ponds and lakes with low fishing pressure, catch and release becomes fatal. Here's a point to drive this home. A bass grows its fastest during its earliest months and years. Proportionately, bass double their weight about every few hours, then every few days and then every few months of their first two years. If a bass has limited competition and all the food they can eat, they grow exceptionally fast. If a bass spends much time at all without adequate food, their growth potential is limited. Essentially, that means if a bass doesn't grow as fast as possible its first three or four years, it doesn't stand a snowball's chance to reach its maximum potential. In my opinion, that's a big reason some of the best Florida strain bass top out at 13 or 14 pounds...because they sat at 10-14 inches for too long. If that's the case, we need to harvest some of the excess bass in that clogged up slot. Here's a summary..."balanced" means there's enough food to go around. "Unbalanced" means that a particular size class of fish has stopped growing, usually because that size class is overcrowded and underfed. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.....this fisheries management is fun. While we all truly want to protect the resource, part of that protection is to harvest the bounty, so nature can replace it.

Hear, here! Big round of applause! As a long time private sector biologist, I still get goose bumps every time I see a double-digit bass. In this business, I help people grow big fish. Here's another way to look at the value of a giant bass. First, it takes AT LEAST ten pounds of baitfish for a bass to gain a pound. For a bass to grow to ten pounds, that's 100 pounds of baitfish over its lifespan, just to grow...that doesn't count what it takes to maintain. If you or I, depending on what part of the planet we live, were to buy those baitfish to feed our bass, the cost would average $10 per pound. That's $1,000 to grow a bass to 10 pounds. If that doesn't cause us all to respect that fish, keep in mind it has to live at least 5 or 6 years, maybe more, to grow to that size. Mishandled, that gem of a fish can die in three days (or less.) It's important we know how to handle a fish, especially those big ones. I do this for a living and I always look at a big bass with reverence.

Building a bass pond, eh? First things, first. Habitat, habitat, habitat...you need to provide habitat not only for the bass, but also for the food chain which supports them. Cover between 10-25% of the pond bottom with fish attractions. Baitfish such as bluegill prefer dense structure and cover. Brush is good, living submerged aquatic plants are good. Bass prefer "fluffy" cover that they can move in and around. As goes the habitat, so goes what lives in it. Habitat is defined as what a creature needs to be able to reproduce, feed, hide, congregate and loaf. Provide those key ingredients and you are well on your way to a good bass lake.

You guys are right. I make a living designing, building, stocking and managing private lakes and ponds all over the nation. Back in the earlhy 80's when I first started stocking pure strain Florida bass, I had no idea their behavior might be different than natives. But, there is a difference. By 1985 I started getting complaints from clients whose catch rates were low. Four fish, maybe five in an afternoon wasn't exactly what they had in mind when the lake was built and stocked. As a fisheries biologist, I naturally figured the anglers didn't know how to catch the fish. After all, every time we launched an electrofishing boat, we shocked up big numbers of great fish. The food chains were in good order and weights of the bass surpassed what they should be. Plus, a 13 pound bass didn't grow that large without eating. I knew they had to feed. Then, one day I was at a private fish hatchery where the proprietors were preparing to cross some natives with prime Florida fish. They had all their broodfish tagged and inventoried with the Florida's in one round tank that held 10,000 gallons of water and their natives in a different tank. I asked that proverbial question "Do the Florida's act differently than natives?" The hatchery manager said "Definitely." Then, he went to a concrete vat full of 3-4 inch long goldfish, filled a five gallon bucket halfway to the top with water and filled the rest of it with goldfish and said, "Watch this." He poured the bucket into the tank with natives. It was a frenzy, akin to pirhana eating. Within a few minutes a few lonely, scared goldfish with missing scales were left. A few minutes later, they were gone. Those natives ate everything as fast as they could. Then, he did the same with the Florida bass. A few bass immediately took the bait, but for the most part, they sat perfectly still, as though calculating their moves. One by one, a bass would watch, sit, then strike. I watched them for at least an hour that day. When it was time to leave, less than half the goldfish had been eaten. The next morning, when I came back, there were no goldfish. I see Florida bass as "grey poupon" fish...picky and finicky. Natives are aggressive by nature. Another thing I have learned is that bass up to 15 inches have feeding habits similar to their younger relatives. While the Floridas are picky, young ones are less picky. But, once any fish reaches 16 1/2 inches, their world changes. With a larger mouth, they can eat larger prey. As they grow larger than that, their lifestyle continues to change. Bigger fish have bigger habits. It takes much less energy for a five pound bass to eat a 12 inch bass than several smaller bluegill or trout, or shad or whatever they have. So, big Florida bass lie in wait much more than any of their native cousins. My vote is that there is a distinct difference in behavior patterns between natives and Florida strain fish.

As a professional private fisheries biologist, I often work with Homeowner's Associations. They are often lacking several things in their decision-making process. First, they don't have a distinct set of goals. Second, they often don't have much of a budget for fisheries management. Third, they don't have the knowledge of fisheries management. Fourth, they don't have people to do the work. When they contact someone like me, the first task is to identify the mission. If you want to improve the fishery, they should not be opposed at all. Explain that better fish management adds to the health of the lake. Fisheries management entails being better stewards of water quality as well as monitoring the food chain which supports the game fish. When the lake becomes healthier, the fish grow. Healthy water and big fish increases property values, which every landowner can understand. Once that concept is understood, the lake is evaluated. With a mission (goals) and a starting point from an evaluation, a game plan is devised. That game plan may be a selective harvest plan, stocking of fish, a feeding or fertilizing plan...or other tools from our lake management tool box. Then, tasks are delegated (harvesting overcrowded bass, feeders, whatever) and accomplished. If the budget is small, most of the work must be done from within.