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mrbassky

Things are getting worst for co-anglers all around-KY State Federation example

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Other than Big tours doing away with co-anglers now the Federation is restricting them. The Kentucky Bass Federation (FLW affiliated) went to new rules for non-boaters. Now they cannot throw past the line in the middle and have no say on the water fished. COME ON!!!! That was it for me I will never fish another KBF tournament. I understand if your fishing with KVD he knows what hes doing but instead your fishing with Jim Bob from another club 2 counties over who may not know jack. I know I fished with several boaters who didnt in my day. No disrespect but would you boaters want to ride along and have no say? I dont know if other federations are going to this format but you are making non-boater results all luck of the draw. I dont care who you are you cant do good fishing dead water. Like the saying goes I would rather be fishing the right spot with wrong bait than the wrong spot with the right bait. I just think another step in a trend to take rights away from non-boaters and give more to boaters. It may be a matter of time till non-boaters have no say at the smallest tournaments. And the KBF is pretty small.

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I'm gonna give you my .02, and it's from both sides of the fence.

I'm also a TBF member, PA to be exact. In the past years I have fished almost all tournaments as a boater. This year I accepted a tournament director position with our district. I decided to fish our 3 district events as a Co-Angler for a couple reasons:

1. I already qualified for our state classic via another tournament

2. I would not have to worry about taking my boat with me, them putting it in and out, etc..and could only be concerned with the TD job before and after the fishing.

Our Co-angler rules state that the Co must fish from the back of the boat but he has 1/2 day on "his" water.

I had a great time and I disagree that it's all luck of the draw. Granted, it helps to draw the ace of the tournament BUT, you reap what you sow. Good fisherman will be good fisherman regardless of where they fish from.

My results this year as a Co-Angler, I finished as our districts Co-Angler of the year. I placed 1st, 2nd, and 4th in the 3 district events. I beat my boaters on all 3 events, they did not finish in the money on the angler side.

I then went on to our state's classic as a C-Angler, I had actually qualified as a Angler also.......Finshed 6th there too, going on to TBF Mid Atlantic divisional. Again, beat both my anglers, they did not place high enough to move on.

Don't get frustrated yet and give up. If your mad about the rules (and I tried to look KY's tournament rules up, couldn't find them) voice your opinion and fight for change. You can make a difference.

Things are really getting good now for TBF members, it's time to grow and have fun!

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I think misread what I was saying. I dont mind fishing from the back of the boat. Our rules state the co-angler has NO say in where the boater fishes. Thats the luck part I was talking about. And I dont care who you are you cant catch fish where there arent any. And at the state championship even if you qualify its the same rules there no say in where you fish. KVD couldnt make the top 6 from a 100 man field fishing terrible water.  Just cant see spending several hundered bucks to fish and draw with some guy who doesnt put you in a spot where you have a chance.

www.kybassfed.com

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Not to be mean or anything else.    If you don't like the rules, buy your own boat.     You don't make the payments on the boat, or the insurance, or the gas used to tow that boat to that lake, or even come close to paying the pro's entry.  

 The pro has more invested and should control the boat.    

And last but not least, we all have a choice if we don't like the rules, no body is forcing you to play by their rules.

     

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I think misread what I was saying. I dont mind fishing from the back of the boat. Our rules state the co-angler has NO say in where the boater fishes. Thats the luck part I was talking about. And I dont care who you are you cant catch fish where there arent any. And at the state championship even if you qualify its the same rules there no say in where you fish. KVD couldnt make the top 6 from a 100 man field fishing terrible water. Just cant see spending several hundered bucks to fish and draw with some guy who doesnt put you in a spot where you have a chance.

www.kybassfed.com

No, I completely understand what you are saying.

IMHO, it's all about the attitude you carry into the boat. If you go in thinking that your NOT going to catch fish, well then you probably won't.  Granted, some fishing spots are better than others and occasionally we draw anglers who are "on 'em".

BUT, most if not all the anglers caught fish in preparation for the tournament. They are going to put you around fish, you just have to figure out how to catch 'em.

If you don't like the format, voice your opinion at the state level. It's YOUR federation. It does no good to complain about it on an unrelated message board.

I could not find any info about these rules on KY federation board?

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Something happened to one of the "favored" guys to have such a rule created.

The "click" probably made up the rule to appease someone or a bunch of guys who are boaters who are friends or the top buys or others in the "click."

To get the rule changed will probably be impossible unless the state director and his board decide to change the rule.  As long as the current administration is in power and are kissing up to the favorite anglers you are fighting windmills.

Have you contacted the state director and asked for the philosophy of making such a rule?  You need to have their reasoning and logic in order to address the issue.

May I suggest boycotting their tournaments? If you can get other nonboaters to do the same then the rule may be changed.

But if the boaters are happy to have a rule to discourage the nonboaters you are up the creek without a paddle.

It is your decision.  Just face the reality of the situation.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving.  :)

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If you really feel like you are getting screwed, then you've got the right idea--quit. It is really the only recourse co-anglers have that carries any weight with boaters. The only reason to have co-anglers is to share expenses and fatten the pot. If co-anglers start disappearing from KY tournaments and the pots dwindle and the boaters have to bear the full cost of operating, they might reconsider.

As an aside, that is why it is critical to pay your share of expenses. I generally pay a little more than my fair share. Money talks--and the boater will notice.

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Not to be mean or anything else. If you don't like the rules, buy your own boat. You don't make the payments on the boat, or the insurance, or the gas used to tow that boat to that lake, or even come close to paying the pro's entry.

The pro has more invested and should control the boat.

And last but not least, we all have a choice if we don't like the rules, no body is forcing you to play by their rules.

     

I agree

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I agree

x3

a boater has to:

- clean the boat.

- maintain the boat.

- prefish.

- find the fish.

- compete to win.

and then have the guy in the back of the boat who...

- hasn't been on the water in 6 months.

- gets to see all your best water.

- wont be helping you clean the boat when you get home.

- wont be helping you change that flat on the long ride home.

have that guy demand an EQUAL share in the decision making.

uhm?

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Money talks--and the boater will notice.

or they will do away with draw tournaments and go straight to ONE MAN ONE BOAT TOURNIES!  yeehaw!  

good clubs have good draw tournaments that will have what you are looking for...

do team tournaments, because you are on the same team... of course then the fishing spots are something youll have to negotiate amongst yourselves (i doubt staking a 1/2 and 1/2 claim will be a good way to approach that - just a thought).

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I will throw my .02 in also.

First the topic being talked about is on the TBF (FLW) not Federation Nation (BASS).

In my state the way the TBF is setup you travel with a partner to the state qualifing tournament and fish as a team.  The top 6 teams advance to divisionals.  The boater being the boater and non boater being the non boater (at divisionals the non boater gets 1/2 the day).  At divisionals the top 2 out of each state advance to nationals.  The top place as the boater and the next as the nonboater at nationals.  The runnerup in the state can also be a boater but has to fish as a non boater a nationals.  Even though he may have a $50,000 boat at home.

In my state in BASS for the state qualifier you pair up.  You room and travel together spliting everything in 1/2.  It is then a draw and the boater and non boater split the day in half.  The top 12 make the state team the top 6 boaters and the next 6 being nonboater going to divisionals.  Everyone competing against each other.  The 6 non boaters could all own there own boats.  We then pair up to go to divisionals spliting the cost of everything and pre fishing together.  At divisionals the day is then split in 1/2 during the tournament.  Everyone is competing against each other.

The expences are split the whole way down the middle.  (THIS IS THE FEDERATION NOT OPEN TOURNAMENTS OR A PRO-AM)  The boaters all should know this and if they are not ok with it then they should fish the opens or pro-am's.

When traveling in the federation the cost is split and the work is split (wiping down the boat, puting the cover on, pluging the boat in at night, cleaning the boat out, fueling up, ect.

Also keep in mind that at the state qual level each state does it a little differently.  Our state fishes one state qual tournament to field there state team others may do a series.

Just my 2 cents like I said  

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mr. cbfishalot

i have to acknowledge that i am not really familiar with the federation format as you describe it.

you may guess from my previous that i am not drawn to it.

can you tell my why they do it that way, and if you like it or no?

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A little off topic but.....

All the above topics discussed are the reason I keep going back to local team trails, with a partner that has a boat and pre fishs. I'm lucky enough to have a home lake that hosts many competitive trails that are well run, and I enjoy the team concept along with not having to fish with a stranger.

We all know getting a bad draw can work against both the boater or the non boater and it makes for a long day, as of late I enjoy my time on the water too much to be fishing with someone I don't really jive with.

Do you guys Pre fish with your non boater?

And if so have you ever had a problem with him bringing his draw to fish you found the prior day, or are they considered  fish that both of you found?

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I agree with Matt Fly on this as well.  Although the Co usually assists with the fuel costs, there is a lot more that goes into being a boater, which should give us the control of the boat for the entire day.  

What if the opposite of what you stated is true?  What if I own the boat and you take me to some dead water for the 1/2 day you have control of the boat.  Is that fair?  It's my boat, I take care of it, pay for it, clean it, etc, then you take me, with my boat, to dead water!!  That would upset me more than going with a boater and not catching anything on their spots >:(.

Also, this is the way of the BFL's and Weekend Series, so it's good training ground should you want to move up the ranks.  The size of the tourney shouldn't have any bearing on who controls the boat.

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The way we do it is you pre fish with your travel partner.  All expences are split with the travel partner.  During and after pre fish the travel partners boater and nonboater should disscuss fishing locations. A agreement should be made on fishing locations for the tournament.  There is a understanding that if you take someone to a spot that you and your travel partner found they will not fish it with another days draw.  

A example is this years state qualifer, on day 1 I drew a guy that we went to his spot first thing in the morning.  I had over 27lb in the boat in 2 hours.  He only had one 2 1/2 lber before we left.  Before we even returned to the dock I let him know that I would not return to his water the rest of the tournament.  That was his water and he found it during pre fishing.    

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I don't disagree with what alot of what you say. However, The topic on hand is the federation FLW (TBF) and BASS (FEDERATION NATION). It is not the weekend series, opens, pro-ams, BFL's, ect. The two federations, and both are set up that at divisional the boater and nonboaters split the day.

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It wasn't a tournament situation but I'll share an anecdote which seems to have some relevance. I went with a friend of mine and his older brother to Pickwick lake in pursuit of smallmouth. It was their boat and as a guest, I was the non-boater. On the way down, I studied the map carefully and circled some potentially good spots. Anyway, when we got out on the water, it seemed the older brother was just going on a long boat ride. He didn't seem to want to stop for anything. I pointed out numerous places on the map and he completely ignored me. He wouldn't even slow down the boat to see what I was suggesting. I'll repeat, it was their boat and I was the guest but I had the perogative of not joining them the next day and I didn't. My friend and I went down below the dam and fished for skipjack. Ironically, the older brother hired a guide who took him to almost exactly the same places I tried to get him to fish. They didn't catch much because of the weather, etc. but I guess my point is, if you don't like the way the system is set up, you try to change it and if that doesn't work, you move on.

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You are at no disadvantage. You are competing against other non-boaters who are fishing under the same rules. What can ya do its not your boat...

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This subject always gets people going. As president of a club and vice president/tournament director for a state BASS Federation we always have to consider participation and growing membership. If co anglers get mad and decide as the person who started this thread that they will not fish with them any longer then you get boaters who get paired with another boater and have to split the boat half the day which puts you back in the original situation. Or you have to limit the field. either way you are it is doing an disservice to the federation and the state team. Maybe other state federations can afford to lose members, but we can't. IMO club and state tournaments should mimic the Divisionals and Nationals. Practice how you compete.

It just doesn't make sense to me to qualify 6 boaters and 6 non boaters for a divisional tournament and the non-boaters havn't had to run the front of the boat. If they as some would say luck into winning their state then they go to Nationals to represent your state and have not run the front of the boat. May be that is the idea of some, " don't let the co-anglers fish the front or find their own fish at the state level then at divisionals the boaters have an advantage over them for going to nationals."

I completely understand the other side of it as well. I pay for the 60k boat, 50k tow vehicle, maintenance, etc, etc. and turning that over to the coangler for half the day bugs me, but the club and federation level has and should remain as a stepping stone for new people to be able to learn and for people can't afford or don't have time to fish the Stren or the Opens.

My opinion over the years has come to this. If you are going to fish club and federation tournaments remember that you have to have co-anglers. If you don't like this format go fish the opens, stren, or a team series. I think Ky is making a mistake if they change it.

Just my $1.50.

Mike

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Not to be mean or anything else. If you don't like the rules, buy your own boat. You don't make the payments on the boat, or the insurance, or the gas used to tow that boat to that lake, or even come close to paying the pro's entry.

The pro has more invested and should control the boat.

And last but not least, we all have a choice if we don't like the rules, no body is forcing you to play by their rules.

     

Amen brother ;)

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Not to be mean or anything else. If you don't like the rules, buy your own boat. You don't make the payments on the boat, or the insurance, or the gas used to tow that boat to that lake, or even come close to paying the pro's entry.

The pro has more invested and should control the boat.

And last but not least, we all have a choice if we don't like the rules, no body is forcing you to play by their rules.

     

Amen brother ;)

Yes the boater has more invested, so he should control more. But the non-boater has investments as well. After reading some of these responses (I have never fished a federation tourney) does the boater actually have to give up the front of the boat for half the day?! IMHO that would be horrible to give up the bow of your boat to someone. As a non-boater I wouldn't want the stress or responsibility of the front of someone's boat. But I do however think that spot decisions should be shared though not neccessarily 50/50.

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I fish bfl's, I have no say "according to the rules", but I haven't had a boater yet that didn't ask me what I thought about the spot or ask for a suggestion on a place to fish.  I fish the back of the boat, ya you could argue that if you have no say and you get a dud boater your up the creek.  Well a guy I travel with has had his boaters blank and he comes out in the top 10, its all on how you adapt to the waters you are fishing.

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IMHO the non-boater should have zero say on the water to be fished, unless the boater asks for help. I've fished as both boater and non-boater.

If the non-boater owns a boat and has practiced recently (within a week) and / or is a local with a lot of knowledge, and if the boater is not on anything, then, yes, I might try some of the non-boater's ideas.

But, if I've been out on  the lake, practicing, and pre-fishing, and spending money to develop a gameplan to win an event, I'm going to follow that gameplan.

Another problem that exists is in these two day Federation deals. A non-boater goes out and does well with his day 1 partner, and then gives away that guy's pattern and spots to his day 2 partner.

I accepted the fact that I had no say-so when I was a non-boater, but if I could help, and the boater asked for help, I would gladly tell him what I was on. Once it got old fishing out of the back of the boat, I started fishing as a boater.

It's pretty clear, if you want first shot at the water and say-so over fishing spots, step up, by a boat, and go as a boater.

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IMHO the non-boater should have zero say on the water to be fished, unless the boater asks for help. I've fished as both boater and non-boater.

If the non-boater owns a boat and has practiced recently (within a week) and / or is a local with a lot of knowledge, and if the boater is not on anything, then, yes, I might try some of the non-boater's ideas.

But, if I've been out on the lake, practicing, and pre-fishing, and spending money to develop a gameplan to win an event, I'm going to follow that gameplan.

Another problem that exists is in these two day Federation deals. A non-boater goes out and does well with his day 1 partner, and then gives away that guy's pattern and spots to his day 2 partner.

I accepted the fact that I had no say-so when I was a non-boater, but if I could help, and the boater asked for help, I would gladly tell him what I was on. Once it got old fishing out of the back of the boat, I started fishing as a boater.

It's pretty clear, if you want first shot at the water and say-so over fishing spots, step up, by a boat, and go as a boater.

Giving away the locations and information of your day one boater's fish is grounds for immediate disqualification.

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Not to be mean or anything else. If you don't like the rules, buy your own boat. You don't make the payments on the boat, or the insurance, or the gas used to tow that boat to that lake, or even come close to paying the pro's entry.

The pro has more invested and should control the boat.

And last but not least, we all have a choice if we don't like the rules, no body is forcing you to play by their rules.

     

Yeah but your not talking about fishing with a pro. Your fishing with Jim Bob from the club the next town over. :(

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