Paul Roberts

Oh yes...that's #5! There HAVE to be more!

Wow is right. Ooooo man....I don't need another hobby!

A couple more: http://bassbuzz.outdoorsfanmedia.com/br_news_article.asp?thecat=2&id=257 http://www.in-fisherman.com/content/inside-look-red-tackle-revolution Keith Jones: "Bass are highly capable of learning, he says. Being caught is punishment enough to teach them not to attack a type of lure. In our circular tank at the lab, we have a robotic device to tow lures and count the number of strikes from bass. To avoid injury and having to handle fish, all hooks are bent down. When you tow a set of lures past a sample of naïve bass, they jump all over them. But by the third lap around the tank their response drops dramatically, and there's virtually no response by lap 5, even though they're never hooked. Bass quickly learn to avoid or ignore something after attacking but not receiving a reward of food. And they retain that knowledge for months. Since these test fish aren't cheap, we initially hoped to keep them and reuse them for various experiments. Even after three months, the number of bites on a type of lure was suppressed. If bass have been tested on crankbaits, we can use them again in worm or jig experiments, but no more with cranks. And bass used in worm tests can be reused in crankbait experiments but not with softbaits. No wonder it can be so hard to get bites out on the lake some days."

One reason doesn't cover all. It could be any one of the above. I assume we're talking about a pattern of short strikes as fish can and do simply miss on occasion. But not that often I believe bc missing is costly and mature bass tend to know what is catchable. As a long time fly-fisher for trout I found the most common reasons were: 1. The fish was testing something that might be edible. I also kept trout in an stream aquarium and I saw them do this pretty regularly. They don't have hands and often the way they did this was with a closed mouth, brushing the jaw and cheek against the item. This is why we sometimes hook fish such outside the jaw. I believe I've had this happen with crankbaits and bass too. 2. Something wasn't right with the presentation and they didn't really know until they got close, and aborted the attack. 3. Here's the odd one I cannot explain: In water too warm for trout comfort (like 80F), trout would boil frenetically at a fly, as though they were acting crazy. They would literally blow up on a fly but NEVER take. It was enormously frustrating. Then again, I shouldn't be hooking trout in 80 water unless I plan to kill em anyway. The crazy part was they might do this repeatedly, whereas in comfortable conditions they make decisions about whether it's worth trying again -usually it's not. 4. Short strikes on frogs: A member (forget his handle -from FL) brought this up as an explanation and I think it's a good one and more common than one might think -at least in my neck of the woods. Sometimes these are simply misses, but other times it's too frequent for that. I believe this is likely the bass chasing bluegills following the frog under the mat.

Ditto Big-O. Only when needed. I'm more apt to do it on topwaters -bulged tandems and buzzbaits. They are more apt to hang up in some places so I try to get by without. If they are really onto the SBs then it's not needed.

Ditto the mid50s where I've fished (NY and CO). That's for consistency. But anglers have reported scenarios that make for topwater fishing in even colder water. The first topwater I start with in the spring is a #11 floating Rapala. I fish it with twitches with long pauses. Works VERY well. As water warms (mid to upper 50s) I go more to other things like a waked #13 Rapala or a small jumpbait (walker).

Sho' 'nuff! It's a great feeling when you can start to make your own luck. Beats waiting for luck to find you. "There's only as much beauty in nature... as we are prepared to appreciate, and not a grain more." -HD Thoreau Good stuff all.

Thanks Raul. Good stuff. How much do conditions and fish activity factor in? Are there times and places when fish are more vulnerable to angling than others? I guess that's my main argument (not to be argumentative ), in my original response above (pg2), that chasing the bait monkey is not the (major) answer.

To put angling pressure affects into perspective: Few of us get to fish unfished waters. So "educated" fish are the norm. Given that normalized playing field, angling pressure is not the main issue confronting anglers. From there I would argue that conditions that affect both fish activity level and perceptive capacity factor in the most. New lures (that fish haven't seen) can help but are not primary. Ask Catt. You are right that some lures are more difficult for fish to learn than others. I've seen that. The Senko is one. But individual fish do vary in vulnerability to angling. There are extremely aggressive individuals that may be caught repeatedly, and there are some that have been deemed "immune to angling". These are the extremes. In between we have the rest of the lot, and yes, over a long enough period of time an experienced angler could stick most of them. But...some will be much more difficult than others. One more question: Why do you prefer to fish minnows to an artificial for your smallies? Is there a catch rate difference? Why? Are there conditions that alter the vulnerability to lures? What are they?

So...you can go to any pond and catch any of those bass at any time? If a pond has say...50 mature bass in it, you will catch them all? If not...why not? Why do people complain so much about "cruisers" being so tough to catch? I've always maintained that if we could actually see what we are NOT catching down there, a lot of us might just hang it up in disgust. Here's a cool quote from tnhiker44, I clipped: "I witnessed a really cool fish shocking event on Watts Bar Lake many years a go. The DNR closed off a small cove with nets and invited a few fisherman (one group at a time) to fish inside the nets. I think they were given 20 minutes each group. We were not chosen, but we watched nonetheless. They weighed and measured all the fish that the fishermen caught, which wasn't many. A group or two got skunked. They then went in there with the shocking equipment and the amount of bass that were in there was simply amazing. The whole experience did not make me feel like a better fisherman, probably just the opposite, but it taught me to not be so quick to give up on a fishy spot."

I don't think that bass learn to avoid lures. I think all bass either completely ignore, refuse, or are actually frightened by artificials most of the time. Lotsa research out there showing bass become MUCH harder to catch after gaining experience with anglers. Also, have you ever fished a pond that had never been fished? It's VERY different from one that is fished. The result is a lot more bass that "completely ignore, refuse, or are actually frightened by artificials most of the time." You wouldn't happen to have a link to any of that research. I'd really like to read up on that. jaymc, I completely agree that bass are not easy to catch, a lot of the time. Just "finding them" is far from the whole game much of the time. But, angling pressure figures in heavy. It may not be noticeable to many anglers since most of us fish "educated" fish all the time. It's the norm now. If you ever get the chance to fish waters that have not been fished, you'll see. I've had such opportunities with both bass and trout. It's...crazy. Here are some things to chew on. You can also Google using keywords: Angling Vulnerability Catchability, angling/fishing pressure, etc Don't limit yourself to bass. Trout waters in the UK are managed on a strictly catch and kill basis, in large part because of the affects of angling pressure. First, some quotes from seminal long term studies run by Dr. George Bennett on the ecology of LMB, and related observations on fishing at Ridge Lake, IL. Ridge Lake was a small (18acre) reservoir Bennett could manipulate, and control access to. I only have it in printed form, so I have re-typed some pertinent quotes: Studies at Ridge Lake showed a rapid decline in the catch rate following the morning of the first day of fishing and continuing through the next several days until it leveled off. To Bennet, this suggested that bass became educated to the more common methods anglers used to present artificial baits. In 1962 fisherman complained that Ridge Lake contained no large bass, but when Bennett drained the lake the next spring, he found that is contained ninety bass that weighed from 3-1/2 to over 9 pounds. Eleven of these fish averaged more than 6 pounds each. (Ridge Lake was an 18acre impoundment). It was Bennett's belief that when angling pressure reached more than sixty man-hours a year/acre, the bass became educated. As another case in point he cited Onized Lake. Two acres in size, Onized was small enough to allow an experienced baitcaster to cover all the water within an hour or two. In 1939, 62 legal-sized bass were taken, 29 in 1940, and only 8 in 1941. Bennett investigated and found 275 bass, 45 of them legal-size, with 12 weighing from 3 to 6 pounds. Manuscripts by Bennett: http://openlibrary.org/b/OL21039599M/Overfishing_in_a_small_artificial_lake_Onized_lake_near_Alton_Illinois http://openlibrary.org/b/OL23523721M/Cost_of_bass_fishing_at_Ridge_Lake_Coles_County_Illinois http://openlibrary.org/b/OL19217045M/Largemouth_bass_in_Ridge_Lake_Coles_County_Illinois Here's a good one, and you don't have to look too far for this one: http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/angling.html Figure 3. Largemouth bass caught per hour of angling related to total hours fished in three small Illinois ponds. Each pond contained 75 bass per acre and each was fished 23 times over 49 days. Mankin, PC., D.P. Burkett. P.R. Beaty, W.F. Childers, and D.P. Philipp. 1984. Effects of population density and fishing pressure on hook-and-line vulnerability of largemouth bass. Transactions of the Illinois Academy of Science 77(3-4): 229-240. It appears to be heritable (no surprise there), as well as a learning process for bass: http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/T06-243.1 Selection for Vulnerability to Angling in Largemouth Bass David P. Philipp* Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 2009; 138: 189-199 doi: 10.1577/T06-243.1 The response to selection for vulnerability to angling increased with each generation; that is, the magnitude of the difference between the high- and low-vulnerability groups of fish increased with each successive generation. Realized heritability was calculated as 0.146 (r2 = 0.995), indicating that the vulnerability of largemouth bass to angling is indeed a heritable trait. From Ralph Manns: http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/smart_bass.html "Anglers, artificial lures, lines, are "unnatural" problems. Problems to which bass have only just begun to evolve defenses. After about another 100 years and 50 generations of catch and release, I predict we will find many evolved black bass that are "too smart" to bite any moving thing that doesn't behave and look and behave exactly like real food, or with a line and hook visible. These " smart" bass still won't be able to add or predict when the next drought will arrive, but they will be better able avoid the dangers anglers create in their environment. Heavily pressured bass are harder to catch because they have focused on one or more warning signal produced by anglers. It may be the noises of troll motors, the pressure waves created by a moving boat, visual or vibrational evidence of a line moving through water, unnatural movement of shape of a lure, boat or sonar noises, or a million other potential negative stimuli that a bass may receive while being reeled to a bass boat and netted. At the same time, they easily learn to ignore passing outboard motors and noises from overhead docks that are not immediately associated with the "being hooked" experience. Bass learn to ignore jet skis, skiers, swimmers (I've watched bass underwater as they examined the toes of swimming children and feed while a man hammered to repair his sailboat overhead.) "

That was fun. "Scared me!" That was the closest topwater strike I've ever witnessed lol.

Gorgeous!

Don't know the Guppy, but I've done well others -a Fat Free med runner and the deep runner. Tackle Tour rated the deep runner (now made by Bomber instead of Excalibur) #3 behind the Lucky Craft and Norman DD22.

"Some anglers pay more attention and get more mileage out of a year than another guy will get out of a lifetime. Pay attention to your fishing and pretty soon you will find yourself establishing a pattern automatically." -Rick Clunn

"Some anglers pay more attention and get more mileage out of a year than another guy will get out of a lifetime. Pay attention to your fishing and pretty soon you will find yourself establishing a pattern automatically." -Rick Clunn

;D ;D

It sure matters to fisherman LOL. It does matter to fish. But where that line is drawn is a slippery slope. I'm a curmugeonly skeptic here -except when the bait monkey is whispering in my ear it seems.

I came very close to mentioning the jerkbait analogy, I'm glad you filled in that space. As Big-O rightly pointed out, we certainly do get impulse strikes during the cold water period, but IMO, most bass in cold water cannot muster that surge of power, and would be more inclined to let it get away (of course, this all depends on the definition of cold) I too avoided the chatterbait hype, which has really cooled off as late. Keep us abreast on your slow-rolling findings Paul, I might still latch on. Is that banana-breathe I smell ;D Roger When I asked the question about fishing the Rage Craws in winter temperatures I was referring to water temperatures just above freezing. In my Winter fishing trips, and I don't take that many, when the surface water is, say 35 degrees, I have not had much success with jerkbaits and crankbaits using them in the manner that is typically recommended (i.e. tight wobbling crankbaits and long pauses with jerkbaits), thus my question about Rage Craws with their "tight wobbling" claws. I do agree that horizontal movement must be extremely slow but I'm still uncertain about wobbling or side to side action once water temperatures are this low. Do you feel these recommendations still apply at these temperatures? Guess I'll try to kill two birds here, ramble a bit wide, and take some guesses. RoLo said: of course, this all depends on the definition of cold Cold is both relative and absolute. I know that seems like a contradiction, but While bass adjust (acclimate and acclimatize) to ambient temps there seems to be an overall effect of temperature on bass' ability to perform. This has been shown repeatedly in the laboratory and more recently in associated field studies both with semi-captive fish in natural locations and with free-ranging fish by telemetry. In my fishing, although bass do feed and may chase all year long, I recognize that there are real limitations based on temperature. I see it in terms of the retrieve speeds required to trigger strikes. Basically, in the 40s I need to give fish more time to react. In the 50s I can pick up speed. By 55 I can regularly get bass to smack topwaters. It doesn't appear to just be location either. By 60 or 65 it seems bass often need speed to get a reaction the opposite of the norm when temps are in the 40s. It's not that action needs to diminish as much as forward speed. The relative part comes in on a shorter term basis, cold snaps that can reduce bass activity. This is somewhat rarer than a lot of anglers believe I think. Since I started taking actual temp profiles I've realized how difficult it is to knock water temps down very much. But it does happen and I've noticed that I have to adjust like longer pauses with jerkbaits, or if I'm impatient, just go to a jig. Ed, I had noticed your saying temps in the 30s I have virtually no experience with that, with bass. By the time water temps dip below 40 it always seems the first powerful fronts ice things over and the nights are too long and sun's just not high enough where I am to bring things back. With trout, such extremes (and these are coldwater fish) affect performance tremendously and I'm better off fishing really slack spots and putting it on their noses. It's not that they aren't capable of bursts of energy, especially under stable (but frigid) temps I've had steelhead leap clear in super-cooled warter -31F! But if you expect them to move far to take, much less chase, you are in for a slow day. For what it's worth, I still think action is less the issue than is horizontal speed. The telemetry I've seen shows bass crowding into winter quarters as temps drop into the 30s. I would expect that location is first, and I wouldn't be afraid of action it should still attract, but the bait has to appear catchable. Ice anglers would have more to say I'm sure. From the ice fishing I've done and read about, under the ice, various species vary tremendously in what they will respond to on a daily basis. Some days it's barely any movement, other days a more vigorous approach draws fish. But remember these are vertical presentations, so horizontal movement isn't involved. Rogerbanana breath??

I'm not convinced of anything yet. Mono is tried and true, and simple to deal with -esp if you keep it fresh. BTW, I lump mono and CoPolys together since they behave so similarly, or, maybe there are no mono's that aren't hybrid materials anymore. But I've been using braids A LOT for several years now for many shallow situations. It has some distinct advantages. I've been trying FCs for a few years for one reason only -it sinks and there's a potential advantage there. However, I'm not yet sure it's a real enough advantage to be worth the cost and loss of durability (nicks and knots) compared to mono. I also simply do not believe FC is much more invisible to fish, or even if that matters much. Also, tests have repeatedly shown that FC does not stretch less than monos. Although after stretching, some FCs stay "elongated". At this point mono/CoPoly's are relegated to crankbait fishing only (XT). I use braid (w/mono leader) for topwaters too now.

Wow! Very nice action! I bet you'll feel those.

I have several 1980s "Heddon Wood" crankbaits. The screw eye holding the front treble is easily turned. I'm wondering if I should replace them with a longer slightly larger one. Or are they adequate as is, and I should leave 'em alone? Suggestions?

That is not edited? And on lake Barkley? That is too much fun. ;D

Kent, there was an article by, or an interview of, Jim Duckworth -a guide in Tennessee. During an extremely cold winter a few years ago he was having up to 100 fish days on CBs due to shad kills. I believe it was In-Fisherman, or maybe BASSMASTER. Here's another piece about it: http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/ columns/story?page=b_col_bt_tips_tactics_0512 Here's his site. I see he's also talking FnFly lately: http://www.fishingtennessee.com/Ducktrail/default.htm

I have...but...that wouldn't be my primary retrieve. Taming horizontal speed, but not necessarily lure action, will usually catch more fish. One of the best cold water lures -the suspending jerkbait -illustrates this really well. They offer good attraction but also are deemed catchable by "lethargic" bass during the suspended pause. As it gets colder, longer pauses become more important. Other top winter techniques like slow-rolled SBs often work best with the same scenario -after popping free of an obstruction, then pausing or falling. Similarly, blade-baits and yo-yo'd SBs work really well in that they attract and trigger without much horizontal movement. Another good winter bait I've added to my box is the Chatter type baits. I avoided the hype until I realized how well they slow roll. I do wonder about a Rage grub as a winter bait fished like a blade bait -but snagless.