Paul Roberts

The depth, regardless of the number, is certainly relevant. If it doesn't winterkill -and it may not, esp now that we know it's on LI (Sorry fishking, but I wasn't the one who exposed it)- than that "deep water" most likely defines the winter habitat for those bass. I fish some ponds that are of similar depth -even similar layout- and if you hit it early enough you are going to have some dull days if you ignore this fact. Here's a seasonally appropriate trip report that highlights two ponds, one is all of 5ft in a deep slot, and the other 8ft: http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/topic/115075-boom-spring-or-is-it/?hl=%2Bpaul+%2Broberts#entry1261169

Algal blooms can be "natural" although nowadays they are often augmented by fertilizing nutrients flushed in from agricultural or urbanized landscapes. Excessive blooms are often a sign of nutrient pollution. Algae tends to produce oxygen, being photosynthetic, but, too much of it can end up using up precious oxygen after it dies (tends to be short-lived) when oxygen-using bacteria populations develop to decompose the dead bloom. Here's an image of algal bloom along with it's cause: bird droppings on a popular roosting beach for geese and gulls.

Absolutely. A bass is only going to mistake a lure for a goby if it knows and expects gobies. And if a bass expects gobies, lots of lures close to the size, shape, and location of gobies will work. Same is true for crayfish, darters, sculpins, dragonfly larvae, baby perch, ... etc ...etc ...etc.... So... fish your "goby" lure and the smallies will most certainly find a reason to bite it.

I once made a lure using a "Creepy Crawler" mold. It was a Tarzan mold so, using melted soft plastics, I essentially made a 3" long human form and fished it T-rigged in a pond full of stunted bass. Must have caught 20 before the lure had no appendages and wouldn't stay on the hook. Not sure what they took it for. Maybe a buzzbait?

Attack!!!!! Bomber's are fine as long as they suspend. Switch out the Warthog for a Brushhog and the depleted uranium for tungsten or plain old lead. Looks like a pond to me too, and a shallow one at that. Being in NY, first thing I'd be doing is checking it AT ice-out for winterkill -especially if it has much vegetation. I'd break it into winter habitat, then spring habitat. In a pond that shallow, winter habitat will most likely be the deepest slots and holes. The map is a rough one so there's probably more there to find. Couple those with steep drops if they exist and I'd be checking those first. Suspending jerks, slow rising flat-sided cranks, lipless, jigs, grubs/tubes, and super slow-rolled SB's would be my choices. As things warm I'd start hitting the warmed coves and arms -looking for heat, cover, and bluegills. You don't have a compass indicator on your map, but the NW shores will likely heat first and most since they get the most sun, as Crestliner says. I'd also check known spawning locations as bass may collect near these areas earlier than you might think. Same lures as above but starting to pick up the pace, esp mid-day on. Early in this period I'd also add a #11 floating Rapala -just a killer early season (>50F) bait.

Lures are generally poor mimics of real food. This is just one of the reasons not all fish at all times are biters. I often think of lures as what they really are: chunks of plastic, wood, and metal. They are tools -as much screwdriver as "bass food". When, where, and how we apply them, rather than what they look like to us in the palm of our hand, matters most. Just bc a lure has "shad" in the name doesn't mean it represents a shad to a bass, unless possibly it's well-presented in a real shad context -and at those times a lot of things might, or might not, pass for "shad". Shad Raps and other "shad-style"/flat-sided crankbaits can work just fine in bluegill, perch, and other prey fish species contexts too. Whether the lure will trip the trigger has a lot to do with what the bass expects to see -what attributes signal "food". This provided the bass is actually hunting or willing to expend the energy to catch that "food". An awful lot of real food goes uneaten every day. As Tom mentions above, whether the bass are more apt to be more "selective" or "opportunistic" depends on the abundance/availability of prey. Bass that struck lures made a mistake. Sky and water conditions are probably the biggest factors outside of feeding activity/anticipation level the bass are in at the moment. And, generally, the more experience a given fish has with a given lure the bigger the mistake. Some individual fish are more prone to such mistakes than are others. Hope this helps you put lures and luring bass into some perspective.

It'll be a bit yet. Hoping to contact publishers this summer.

You know, I don't have "Catching Fish". I saw it in a used book store but didn't grab it. Kinda wish I had, if only for the history. "Knowing Bass" by Keith Jones is a good reference too. Hootie, that's quite a collection you've got there.

http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/skinny-fish.html

Cold nights can drop surface temps fairly quickly. But days are getting longer and nights shorter so your ponds are going to start taking on heat and, water being water, holding onto heat. Where I'm at we can even get snow, but the ponds still hold heat, and post-frontal sun re-heats things rapidly. Heating is inevitable, but the details -how it happens- can be worth tracking. Although bass can be caught across a variety of conditions, I've come to appreciate post-frontal days after a good chill-down, and I usually get to enjoy several of them each spring. I actually begin to pray for cold fronts bc the post-frontal heat-ups can be so good. Wind factors in too. Strong wind can be a big issue bc it can roll up that cold water from the depths that hasn't been heated yet -chilling things out. Lighter breezes are worth paying attention to as well, as they push warm water to the downwind shore. Here are a couple trip reports that describe fishing early season heating on small waters: http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/topic/116606-searching-out-those-zones-of-carnage/ http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/topic/46927-two-more-fascinating-days-on-colorado-pond-almost-a-skunking-and-pure-carnage/

It's the same bass. Bass (and other fish) have unique markings that make them individually identifiable. Coloration is altered by pigments in skin cells that are regulated through the nervous system signaled by surrounding light coming in through the eyes. This allows fish to effectively "mirror" their background and (w/wo hormones) to adjust coloration and markings for social reasons. I've seen some fully blind fish (due to cataracts) -both bass and trout- that were almost black, having no ability to see their surrounds. As Jiggin' mentions, bass become paler in turbid water bc contrast is reduced in the environment around them. Similarly, winter bass are often paler bc they are apt to be away from cover, and vegetation dying back can leave bass more exposed. In fact, you can see this in the backgrounds of your photos. Bass are usually darkest, or more heavily marked in clear water with highly contrasting backgrounds. Fish suspended in open water tend to be pale and often silvery. One pond I used to fish was managed as a swimming pond having virtually no vegetation and very clear water. It's largemouths were the most silvery bass I've still ever seen. They actually wore the "pelagic silver" salmonids gain in open water.

This is getting a little weird guys. A little too personal maybe. Catt, you've lost me. And...dunno who that someone else is, and I'm not sure I care to hear a put-down. I'm staying on topic. Let me restate the statistic so it's better understood: How many BR members do you think fish bass waters in which temperature plays an important role in the initiation of spawning? 50%, 90%, 99%, 99.999%? The reciprocal of that represents the waters in which temperature does not play a role. Tropical waters are similar to springs in that they are nearly isothermic. Isothermic waters are pretty darn rare across the basses' range. You place the hypothetical decimal place where ever you want it. You must admit they make up a tiny percentage of bass waters. Can I give you an example of waters that totally eliminates photoperiod? No. 100% of bass waters are affected by photoperiod is my answer -again. This question tells me you haven't actually read this thread. Not sure what Catt and his new clutch friend Karl would say about the reciprocal of that one. Hey, guys, go review the scientific literature on bass spawning. And if you want to go further, get a thermometer and start taking daily profiles and observing when bass actually initiate spawning. Occasionally running around with a surface temperature gauge isn't going to get the job done. I'm outta the sandbox.

So.... 0.0000001% of swans (or pick your critter) are "black" (or pick your rare trait). That could well be true. Are you saying that Karl Popper was suggesting otherwise? Maybe you could give some well documented examples of other circumstances beyond the springs and tropical introductions (Puerto Rico) that refute the importance of heat in bass spawning. Then we could adjust that value to ... maybe 0.000002%. Roger, shall we bump to 0.00003% But, do you have temperature profiles for the previous 2 weeks? TPW gives a value of 15C. Possibly they are less equipped to monitor such things? I'm not trying to be difficult here. Just haven't found any solid data that refute the role of temperature in the initiation of bass spawning.

The remaining 0.000001% of bass waters I'm referring to are the isothermic spring waters, and tropical reservoirs where LM have been introduced well south of their existing range. I suppose we might be able to add in some cooling reservoirs, but most of those have cool locations and periods too. We're still looking at a tiny percentage of bass waters where temperature doesn't play a dominant and final role.

Roger, no one has said temperature stands alone.

Agree. except to say that, in 99.99999% of waters, temperature is the thing to track for initiation.

As Catt suggests above, there is no one event. There are multiple events in a cycle that starts the previous year. Some key factors: Egg maturation -Having the raw materials to get the job done happens the previous year or, in some individuals or even populations during tough conditions, the final "deposits" are made during early spring. This is why the larger fish are more apt to spawn earliest -they can afford it. And small fish are most apt spawn latest. I've seen this in my own (albeit amateur) pond studies. Southern females may spawn more than once; far northern fish may not spawn every year. Tropical bass (introduced) have shown an extended spawning season (like south FL) Photoperiod -Photoperiod changes have direct endocrine effects that goad the process and GENERALLY synchonize the event. Lots of literature out there on this and it's powerful enough to experimentally force spawning events in fish and other animals -with other keys in place, temperature being the final requirement. Temperature -Temperature is critical to cold-blooded creatures, and with fish it is the final push. It allows for body weight gain efficiency, activity required for spawning behaviors, and protects temperature sensitive eggs.

Effects on other life forms don’t necessarily stretch across all life forms. We all love such an idea, as a unifying theory simplifies things. There are unifying things but they are difficult to get at, and we are easily fooled. Every scientist who has gotten in deep –put in the work– has come up against their own biases. What is “known” about moon effects on freshwater fish comes from fisherman’s theories, angler catch records, and scientists research. Angler theories are rarely, if ever, really appropriately tested and when taken collectively include the entire month! They can’t all be right. Angler catch records some say show some statistical evidence for lunar effects. None have held up to rigorous statistical evaluation however. Scientific research looking at lunar effects on bass have not shown any solid effects. I attempted to tackle the question myself and did not find any smoking guns that could not be explained by other means. I am not terribly enamored by moon theories anymore, however I will keep an open mind. It is still possible that even a minor effect (such as moon influence) could be unmasked from the shadow of more important (and likely more local) effectors in certain circumstances. I’m not closed to that. But I’m highly skeptical, esp where sufficient rigor has not been applied. It’s human nature to jump at answers. The sun coming up every day, through the year, and even beyond, is the most reliable thing known. I think what Roger’s referring to is the fact that there are events that affect reproduction that, if recognized, make reasonably good predictors. In that case he’s talking recruitment: water level being an important –even critical– factor in year class success. He’s right. Doesn’t mean it’ll pan out exactly as planned, but the pattern of high water during the spawn tends to result in good YOY (young-of-the-year) survivorship. That’s the start for a strong year class. It's a good prediction.

Apparently, most FL waters do vary in temperature. And the important values appear to be in the same ballpark as the rest of the country: From Rogers' and Allen's "Water Temps Drive the Spawn": http://sfrc.ufl.edu/allenlab/Popular%20Articles/Rogers&Allen_BassTimes.pdf

Ah! So the limitation is suitable spawning habitat. I was thinking spawn timing since this is the thread topic. I was also thinking how, in many waters, high water brings increased fry survival from increased fry habitat. The boons in my ponds get their start on high water years. Just goes to show that all politics is local. There's a lot going on out there that's for sure. Our job is to find patterns in it all. Good conversation.

Agree with you on the moon comment. Your prediction of a banner year for the 2015 reproductive season is probably going to be born out. However, the effect of high water level is likely to be more on fry survival than it is on spawn timing.

I have too. I've measured water temps directly in beds tended by males ranging from 48 to 79F. That doesn't say anything at all about the initiation of the spawn in those circumstances. Bass nests in locations prone to seiches are at risk and one of the reasons successful bass nests tend to collect in "protected" bays and coves. Thus the reason for variability in nature. However, water temperature is not nearly as volatile as in air -a basic and important property of water for life. That doesn't tell us much at all about when those fish began spawning. Spawning seasons can run for months. And not all bass spawn at the same time. And the spawning period is a much longer period in the far south. Seeing a bass in a bed at a certain temperature doesn't mean much. You'd have to track temperature profiles from before the spawn on, as I've done. Then that was a resident fish of a backwater of a larger lake that lived essentially in a small pond. This, provided your data is good: Water temperature profiles for the period leading up to the day that fish received eggs. I know few anglers (actually none) who have bothered to look so close. Most would rather be fishing. That temperature is above 60F, yes? They already have "appropriate temperature" right there. In that (rare) case other cues rear up. In the farthest reaches of LM's introduced range, in fully tropical waters where water temps never drop below 75F, the bass are known to spawn on water level rises. Heat is not necessarily the only potential proximal cause, but the lack thereof is what keeps spawning at bay in 99.999999% of bass waters. You certainly don't have to, nor should, take my word for it. But, do a literature search and see how well that statement holds up. You know what's even more volatile and unreliable is the "data" taken by anglers -which is generally none whatsoever. The few surface temps people read during their outings aren't going to get at the question of spawn initiation. Water temperature is the final factor, the cue, for the initiation of spawning. It's pretty solid. Enjoying the conversation, Roger. Nice to have someone willing to chat about such cool stuff.

I have been aware of this for a long time -being a small water guy for so long- and I even put some numbers (temps and dates) to it a few years ago when I started looking closely at spawn timing, as you probably remember. And, the literature is pretty clear on this too. Photoperiod can be used to manipulate spawning but appropriate temperatures are needed to kick it off. Yes, temps do fluctuate in small waters, the shallowest quite severely at times. I did see an apparent underlying (photoperiod/endogenous) rhythm at work, evidenced by my shallowest ponds reaching initiation temperatures but no spawning occurring. Good thing too, because that early we could get snow at any time. What did happen was the basic date needed to come around (photoperiod/endogenous), then fine timing was initiated by water temps roughly stabilizing (heat penetrating deep enough to create a volume of relatively stable water temps approaching 60F). Water holds heat well, and once heated, it takes a lot to really knock it down. Fronts may chill things but not completely and reheating is not long in coming with sun angle where it’s at by then. Earlier, the see-saw battle is too dangerous for bass eggs. Again, most anglers aren’t going to see this, or care all that much. It’s, as Catt has put it, “interesting information” but not all that practical. We fish when we can and those first spawners may not represent the majority of spawners, and may be fleeting -being more at risk to cold snaps than later spawners are. There is an advantage to getting an early jump on the growing season. however. Some years it works out. Selective pressure (as the ultimate cause) tends to keep annual spawning times somewhat consistent, but temperature is the critical proximate cause that kicks it off [EDIT}: over 99.999999% of bass waters.

Fins grow back out. To be permanent, fIn-clipping requires taking the supporting bones too. But, there's no need to mutilate your fish, their markings are individualized enough. See my post above.

I beg to differ, Roger. If that were so then all lakes would initiate (good metric) spawning at the same time. But they don't. Water volume plays a big role -and offers a good example- the reason being that large volumes take longer to heat. Small ponds go first, then larger ones, on up to the lakes. Photoperiod is a factor, but it's a broader stroke. Temperature is the final driver. But... most anglers don't fish enough, or probably care, to be there for the initiation. Spawning happens over a period of time in all waters as there's variability in there. Thus, initiation temperature means little to anglers practically speaking. However, hitting waves of spawners is most likely during big temperature increases at the right time.