J Francho

I'm just catching up with this thread... Paul, I am sure just about everyone that fishes streams for trout has snagged at one point or another. I did. Then I learned about floating tiny jigs, and the rest is history. Nearly impossible to foul hook a fish on a float rig. Yeh, OT again, LOL. Roger, your point about fishing at depth and line diameter is well taken. In many ways, I feel that the smaller diameter lines, and more specifically, fluorocarbon that is so popular for fishing for Great Lakes smallies actually has more to do with getting a straight line connection to the offering - usually a drop shot tidbit or tube jig - and getting it down. So many anglers have said to me that they get bit using FC more because the fish can't see it, and they are able to use a step up. I think its because the stuff sinks. As I mentioned before, I use braid and a lonnnnng FC leader, and while braid doesn't sink, I am using a very small diameter line, which overcomes the bow in the line. While doing house chores today, there was a saltwater fishing show on, Ted Hernandez, I believe. He echoed your point about deep salt fishing. His parents were rigged up with 30 lb. rigs, while he stressed the importance of carrying a few 20 lb. rigs. With his light line rig, he was able to penetrate the school of yellow fin tuna, and get to the bigger fish at the lower reaches of the feeding fish. He consistently brought in bigger fish than his parents, despite being slightly under matched, and this drove his point home. Once again...great stuff gents.

Except I did it in less time. Admittedly, just when I was really starting understand how to try and catch bass (late 80s through now) the industry open a ton of doors to new, and better tackle. There didn't seem to be much revolution going on before, besides plastic worms, spinning reels, and nylon mono filament. By "zebes," I do mean zebra and quagga mussels. The latter seem less picky about where they grow, and I've even run into them encrusting coontail and milfoil! Talk about a terrible place to be with the 50# braid that everyone here recommends for heavy vegetation, LOL.

Say what?? Them's fightin' words you know. Admit it, you have a spey rod loaded with 25# mono, and two gumball sized sinkers about 4" above a #2 hook. ;D

I think someone did one a year ago, or so. Problem is, it seems to vary as you move from light to heavy lines. I just peeled my numbers from the BPS site.

P-Line Hydrafloat. Reviews from several ranged from ho-hum to hating it. Remember though, steelheading is a bit slower moving than bass angling as far as equipment evolution goes. And as for the flyrod for trout, one thing: SNAGGER!!!! (Just kidding ;D)

Relax Francis - I read the rest of your post (after all it was only 3 more sentences) and my question wasn't a debate request it was an opinion request. I was speaking specifically to you being blown away by the 15# after you referenced normally using 8/10/12 lbs XT. You mentioned 8# CXX fishes like 10# XT and so I wanted to know if whatever the equivalent XT would be for the 15# would still result in you being blown away or if you would think they'd be much similar. I haven't used either in that size and I'm always looking for a game-improving change. You then answered it in your subsequent posts. Good grief. Fair enough, then. Hard to tell the tone. It sounded as though you stated that P-Line CXX understates it line strength, showing larger diameters for comparable break strengths. That doesn't seem to be the case, though I still think each line size fishes like the benchmarks next line up, or so. Its got to be the inherent stiffness in CXX, even when treated with KVD Line & Lure. Sorry, getting killed here at work.....bleeding into other things. :-[

Drift? As in Hezog's western syle? In my opinion, no. Too much contact with rocks is bad for braid, even with a longer leader. At least with nicked monu, you stand a sliver of a chance, whereas frayed braid is toast. Now, for float rigs, it great, as long as you are using a slow action rod and a spinning or casting reel with a very light, smooth drag. You can use a much smaller diameter mainline which equates to lighter, which means longer trots downstream, while keeping your mainline off the water for a better float. I started out three years ago with fused Fireline, and did well. Until the temp dropped below freezing. Same goes for traditional braid, like Power Pro. My last few trips I have been using 15# PP braid. Most centrepinners shun braid, due to the fact that they have no drag, per se. Since the spool spins freely, their finger on the lip serves as resistance, and the stretch in mono acts as a shock absorber, along with the long, light power, slow action rod, giving them a bit more time to react to the fish. I'm not 100% sold on pinning, though its hard to deny the results. I'm currently researching a 12' UL/moderate casting rod and round reel as my full time trout rig. I still like use a few bottom bouncing rigs in certain conditions, and that rig would allow me to use either terminal rig.

Essentially, it is mono filament, just not dad's nylon mono. I bet more of those so called monos aren't some type of copolymer anyway. How could anyone get away with 40 years of no technology advancement? And yeah, I guess the only traditional mono I'm using is for trout. Its the only thing that seems to work in the cold.

LMAO....Your Yo-Zuri is also excellent line. I've used Ultra Soft in smaller diameters before switching to braid. While bench testing a certain someone's repaired drag, I got silly break strengths with what I presume was 12# Hybrid. I could probably get used to using YZ, if it weren't for the 10 lbs. of CXX I have yet to use, LOL.

I looked up the diameters, and it actually surprised me how similar they are. I suppose some of CXX "feeling" bigger was purely subjective. Trilene XT 17# - 0.017" (.43mm) CXX 15# - 0.016" (.40mm) Trilene XT 8# - 0.012" (.31mm) CXX 8# - 0.012" (.30mm) Apples to apples. 'Nuff said.

Now you're dipping into line so thin, the strength to diameter relationship is negligible. I don't see an advantage in the lines smaller than 8# (0.012). I'll put it this way, I replaced 10# Trilene XT with 8# P-line, and see a real improvement. I replaced 12# Trilene with 10# CXX, and see a really big improvement. My initial spool of CXX was 15#, because it was close to the 17# Trilene I used, and it was overkill. 12# CXX works fine. Here's a story about 15# CXX. 18.5 ranger + 89 lb. thrust TM + hung bullet sinker in wood = boat lost. I had to cut it. This was down on SML this past April. For most of my small diameter applications, I've gone to braid. 15# Power Pro with a long fluoro leader (I like P-line CFX, Gamma, and TriplFish leader material) in 4 to 10# sizes is working really well for me. Hope that helps.

What was the line diameter of the 15# CXX and translate that to the other lines you tested - i.e. if it equals a 20lbs XT, then those are the 2 lines you should compare and determine which you like better. I would be curious if you would be as blown away because the gap should be much closer. On the Seaguar being the weakest comment - that's superfluous because it had the smallest diameter. Compare equivalent diameter Seaguar / other fluoros (diameter, not lbs ratings) and then see where it falls in terms of strength. Comparing lines by lbs rating, if they have different diameters, is comparing apples and oranges. Try reading the REST OF MY POST!. Jeez, some dudes just want to debate and debate. I CLEARLY stated this here: I don't have the figures in front of me, but 15# CXX feels like 17# XT. Someone as critical as you should be able to look it up somewhere. And, once again, in the realm of context, I was blown away by its abrasion resistance, or STRENGTH WHILE FISHING. This is what you measurebators will never get - you actually have to try the freaking thing to actually get a meaningful impression, LOL. Again, and again I say this: line preference is a VERY subjective thing. No quantifiable data will ever completely support any argument of why someone prefers on line over another. :

I go by line diameter as well. 8# CXX fishes like 10# XT. I generally use 8, 10, and 12# diameters. If you are curious about abrasion resistance, I've caught most of my recent pike, including this one on 8 and 10# CXX, with no leader. I've yet to break off using topwaters, jerkbaits and hard swimbaits. Spinnerbaits and jigs, well that's another story....twist and melt for me. If it helps any, I was a XT/XL guy for years. To me, it is the bench mark that all others can be measured to, since most everyone that has fished for years has used them. A few years ago, I tried Suffix, and I felt is was a bit better, maybe more consistent. I still like Siege for all my steelhead applications. I tried CXX on a whim, 15# actually, for t-rig worms. To say I was blown away is understatement. I caught fish, big fish, where the lione was actually peeling due to contact with zebes, and I was still unable to break it with my hands. However, its not a nice to handle as the previously mentioned lines, especially on spinning gear. I also don't feel that it is that strong or abrasion resistant at diameters smaller than 8#. But that goes back to the diameter - abrasion resistance relationship that Rolo brought up.

They should fill the connecting canals with concrete.

I catch smallies all the time when fishing for pike using 50# wire with bucktail jigs.

Chumming is illegal here.

Flipping is just a cast, and I use it on every rod I own. Same goes for pitching. Now, for fishing heavy slop or pads, I prefer a 7 to 8' rod, heavy to X-heavy power, and a moderate to mod. fast action.

Winterizing a boat, and preparing a boat for storage during sub freezing temperatures may not be the same thing. :

The only line failure I've ever had with CXX using this knot with spinnerbaits is from northerns biting me off.

We use long, UL rods - 10-15'. Shimano Convergence is a very decent rod at a good price. St. Croix Wild River and G. Loomis both make high end float rods. Float rigs rule. Here is a VERY good resource for shot patterns: http://www.anglersinternational.com/Shotting%20Patterns.pdf. Many use centrepin reels, but spinning or casting works too. For bait, we use spawn sacks, flies, Berkley Trout Worms, and a simple 8-12mm bead, pegged about 1/2" above the hook. Learn to read the water, look for rip lines indicating deeper holding holes. Cast in front of you, and let the rig trot down stream. Float goes down, or does a little dance, a gentle sweep set will drive the little #10 to #6 hook home. Here is a spawned out hen I caught last week on a brown trout spawn sack. This Salmon River buck took the pink worm: You can see the float and shot line rig clearly here: Finally, my buddy Kase, working a big buck on a 13.5 centrepin combo:

They should be called "pitching reels." here is what I use: Daiwa TD-X103HSDL

Clinch knot works for me with spinnerbaits.

#3 is probably the right choice, but isn't this an HR issue?

Tell you what, Big Al has about 20 minutes worth of fishing dedication. He just has fun being outside with me, and walking in the water with the waders. Fishing is not a high priority on our outings. My dad did the same thing. Took me allover the place, and I probably played with bugs and rocks for most of them, LOL.

I don't think you can make accurate comparisons using two different brands of units. Bigger game fish show up as MUCH deeper arches than in my image above. Much, much deeper. As WRB pointed out, the length has more to do with speed of the boat or fish. This is why, once I've started to fish, I don't rely on the graph history. Its just that - history. I'll use the real time scanner on the right, like a peeled flasher. But, I do agree that when you switch to narrow 200 kHz beam, your moving targets are in the cone less and make tighter arches. As far as showing "color," I can easily manipulate how much color shows in the returns via the sensitivity. I generally keep mine pretty low, around 5 or 6 on a 20 unit scale. When zoomed in, a 12-14" perch looks like a hoss approaching your bait, which when using Gulp Minnow, looks like a thin yellow line. You can definitely see the relativity between bait and predator. I wish I had pics of the bait balls with HUGE arches below, and at the edges that I saw on Port Bay two weekends ago. I'll try getting some more, though the weather has to behave since all I have to shoot with is a $1600 DSLR, LOL.