J Francho

Do you like split grips or full cork?

Bear with me, as this opens the discussion up, and may support what measurement means more to you. mjseverson24 should be able to chime in, since his background is in this realm. It seems to me, 20% decrease in torque would be more easily realized than a 20% increase in knob travel. Here's why: When I fish a moving bait, I pretty much use a constant retrieve. Actually, sometimes I slow down as the bait gets closer, but that's a whole different discussion on technique, not gear. That retrieve rate is usually judge by the bend in the rod, or in other words, I pick speed based on resistance of the bait. It matters little what length the handle is, within reason, of course. My hand moves at basically the same rate, irrespective of the length of the circumference the path of the knobs describe. Watch yourself reel. Observe the difference, if any when differing handle lengths are introduced. I did this with two of my three Chronarchs, one has a Hawgtech, the other does not, and the third is handicapped, as Maximus says lol. There isn't any difference. Crank shaft RPM, or the speed I move the handle is unchanged, even though I changed handle length. Remember that resistance I spoke about? To get the rod tip load equally, requires the same cranking RPM. The perceived torque used to get to this arbitrary, yet constant load is different. The longer handle takes less effort. How much less? aavery quantified this with simple math. What changes in the parameters affect this perceived difference? Handle length, gear ratio, spool diameter. Change just one of these parameters, and you get a noticeable change in the way a reel feels. What's not on that list? Knob travel distance, as it relates to "rollout" or "overall gear ratio" - a term I hate. The amount of line taken up by the spool is the same, regardless of knob travel. While this certainly changes when you increase handle length, it isn't an influence on "speed" of the reel. I'm all for discussions on specs, and using formulas and math to get to the answers and support an opinion. But, and this is a big ole but, it must apply to practical usage. There might be a place for Josh's formula to justify or quantify a some mechanical change made to a reel, but for comparison's sake, and real world fishing, it pales in consideration of other factors. You may disagree, and that's okay, too. I would like to hear an application of rollout or overall gear ratio applied to actual fishing conditions. Last thing, if this doesn't discussion interest you, then don't post negatively. Just move on. I could care less about many topics posted here, but I have to read them all, being a moderator. I don't post in threads I deem unworthy of discussion - it's not my business, so long as forum rules aren't being broken.

I'm in the leverage on the rod guy as well, BUT.... There is leverage on the reel. How much? Enough to keep the rod fully loaded. This might not be a lot, say on a finesse rig, with 6# line. But consider other methods, like fishing slop with an XH power rod and 50+ lb. line. To keep that rod loaded certainly requires some leverage on the handle. Another situation might be a cranking rod. It doesn't take much to get fully into the bottom third, "power" section of the blank, and often, I find fish come in easier if I use the reel to slowly tease them in and gain line. The longer handle helps in both scenarios. Maybe those scenarios aren't applicable. The swept handle thing, I see that as a stylistic aspect of the reel, with minor ergonomical consideration. I don't find any advantage to it, other than some reels have such a long crankstack, that the knobs stick out too far. Abu Revo reels really fit that description, as do Zillions. They need a swept handle. Many reels with a clicking drag, like my Zillions, add to that length all the mechanics to get a clicking drag. If you look at an Alphas and a Zillion stacked, and aligned on the reel foot. The knobs of each are pretty much in the same position. The Alphas doesn't have a clicking drag, and therefore has a shorter crank stack.

Sounds like you answered your own question before asking. I bet one can dig up a good amount of evidence for other baits foul hooking bass. Are trailer hooks unethical? What about suspending slash baits? Large, deep diving cranks? Big topwaters? Swimbaits? All these baits pose a great risk of the second (sometimes third) hook catching the fish outside the mouth. Heck, I've foul hooked smallmouth on a dropshot. I think you have to draw line at intent, when it comes to ethics here. You're trying to draw a strike, the fish attacks the bait - wait, isn't that what we want with every bait? I think I actually foul hooked a bass once with an umbrella rig once. Maybe twice. But it was also hooked in the mouth. I do quite a bit of jerk bait fishing, and I've been known to remove the rear treble on three hook baits when the bite is aggressive, to keep from having to perform surgery between catches. I'll also put the umbrella rig down when the bite is on - it's not the tool for that. It works on those days, when bass are schooled up, suspended, and in a negative feeding mode. It ignites them. What the pros' rules allow and restrict has little influence on my fishing. If you don't like to use them, then don't use them. If you are fishing against me on Oneida in the fall, really don't use them. Throw out your red traps, too. They don't work either, lol. I think questioning the ethics in fishing is an important discussion, but a flame war, with anglers pointing their fingers at other anglers serves no purpose. So let's try to keep this educational and informational. Videos of snagged fish? Let's see them.

Are you here to sell the reel, or are you looking for info? If it's the former, then put a post in the FM that includes a price. Pictures always help expedite the sale.

NuCanoe is an interesting boat. A friend of mine has one, and loves it. There's a TON of boats that are every bit as stable, that may not "look the part." We can have a detailed convo about the Coosa, offline if you'd like.

Let's keep the comments in one topic for now.

From a rules vs. local laws standpoint, it seems like it's easier just to say, no to spreader rigs. No trying to enforce confusing laws - a treble is a hook, and three hooks per bait, one bait per rod, one rod at a time. It doesn't really affect me, and my fishing, so I don't care what they allow/restrict. However, that does have an impact on what everyday anglers choose to fish with.

What does Farmer's Almanac say? I was just poking fun at FB. So much stuff up there - what's real, and what's fake? What your man describes is every winter here. Though, it doesn't usually start until late December. The lake holds a ton of heat, and while it causes lake effect snow, it can insulate us in early winter.

My 1-5 fantasy team scores more points than the skins.

Did you get nekkid man's number when you went ashore? Lol.

3.8

Awesome man.

Never said handle length was irrelevant. I don't think your math generates a useful number to describe what effect it has on how a reel feels.

No, it's worth more because it has the longer handle. Remember, I kept the knuckle buster, lol. And I'm not a genius. I just like turning maths into pictures, so managers can understand the numbers.

It punishes people who try to peek in your bed. It's also a parking lot weapon. LOL.

Are we making beer? Setting up a saltwater tank? LOL.

You basically reinvented rollout, and called it gear ratio. So, are if you want a faster retrieve, are you getting a shorter handle with your reel, or faster gear ratio? Does it even make a difference? By your math the difference in line retrieved is nominal (<1/3 of an inch), compared to say the 8.5" difference between a low speed Zillion and a the SHA. This has ZERO to do with handle length, and everything to do with gear ratio and spool size. Sorry. Bad math just popped up again. Ummm, doesn't your reinvented formula use gear ratio? I think I know what your getting at, but it doesn't work. If you want to know speed, use IPT. Measure the spool, and use the gear ratio to get the product. Spinning reels often take up 34 IPT or more, yet have much lower gear ratios. I can pretty much guarantee that in a race, long handle or short handle, it matters not. One may be more comfortable than the other, but when you tell me that 1/3" of handle travel is more meaningful gives you more information about the speed of a reel than 6-8 IPT (and this is even arguable by many that use high speed reels for everything) then I'm call bologna. If it makes you feel better about what you purchase, then have at it. I think very few can understand it, let alone appreciate what you're trying to quantify, in the context of the pros/cons of a longer handle.

My Avid topwater/jerkbait rod, and AC62MXF (notice the lack of a "V" in the model number, which denotes it's a pre IPC blank) is almost 15 years old. One of my favorites.

I wasn't sure if this needs to be stated, but yes, that's how a ratio works. You can substitute whatever unit of linear measure for inches. I.E. for every 1 parcept of handle movement, you retireve 3.01 parcepts of line. It doesn't have to be inches, but if that helps you. I'm still not sure what that means when I'm comparing reels. What's better?

Of course we agree on the numbers - I used YOUR math. What about the rest of the questions?

Early mass, no singing, get your repentance done quick!

Don't edit old posts. Just restate what you mean in a new post.

That rig draws them like seniors to bingo night. LOL.

Are you suggesting that manufacturers misstate gear ratio? That's NEVER been an issue that I know of. It's IPT that varies. Why? Different spool diameters. So how would this measurement read? How would you know what is better for a particular presentation? How would this "ratio" read? Inches per inches? Aspect, like for tire fitment? I'm sorry, I'm struggling to get where your going here. So, I'll use a real world example - A reel and two handles I own. Zillion TDZLN100SHA Gear ratio: 7.1:1 Line retrieved: 31.6"/turn or ~803 mm/turn Handles: 85mm JDM stock, Hawgtech 94mm straight So with the 85mm handle, the circumference is ~267mm, assuming we're measuring this on the centerline of the knob posts. That's 267:803 With the 94mm handle, that same "ratio" is 295:803. I'm gonna just assume you misspoke, and reverse the two measurements when you made up this ratio, since it's easier for we westerners to read left to right. Reduced to 1, that gives us these stats: 85mm is ~ 3.0:1 94mm is ~ 2.7:1 Okay, we have some numbers. What do these mean? What is more useful about this? Let's assume we go with this as the "new standard" for rating reel retrieve. How do I know which reel is better for burning baits, or for slow rolling a deep diving crankbait? Is the higher number the faster one? Wait, I have to move my hand slower with the higher number, right? Wait, what? Help me out here. Why so serious? Because I feel seriously stupid not being to see why this helps anyone in any way. I'm a Business Intelligence analyst by trade, and data, stats, measurements, and the like are the things I know. Please enlighten. Let me be clear, this isn't a flame war. I'm curious where this helps. Last fact. The difference in travel between the two handles is 1.1 inches. Not much. In fact, I'd be hard pressed that there is any speed advantage, either way. The distance your hand moves is by no means a good measure for efficiency and speed. I play drums, and I can tell you, I can move my hands a lot faster using longer swings than tiny ones. But anyway, the point is that nominal difference has plenty of effect on how the reel feels when used. So much, many have strong opinions on what is better. I don't think your "math" equation helps anyone decide what's better to them.