AmmoGuy

An astute observation.

But then where would you make your sarcastic or snide remarks?? I’d hate to take that outlet away from you.

Like I said, if cost or weight wasn't a factor. And the US Zillion SV TW has brass gears.

The legitimacy of the emphasized portion is precisely what this thread is questioning. When it comes to cost, Fishing is far and away the least expensive hobby I participate in. I can afford high end reels, I've just held out on whether they were truly necessary. I like finding a "gem" that offers the consistent, predictable performance I want, at a good value. I've about run out of faith that I'll find that in a reel, ha. I'm close to filling the boat up with Black Max's and calling it good. ?

I'm pretty sure the D50/Ram 50 was a Mitsubishi drivetrain. If not entirely built by Mitsubishi.

No arguments from me on that one. There is a reason the rest of the world takes so many best practices from the TPS. They didn't find fault with the process, the process found faults in the Engineering and GD&T.

Funny. I actually randomly stumbled across this video.

Right. The expectation that assemblers or line workers should/can inspect quality into a high volume production line is a poor practice. It is a no-no in most modern QMS’s. Anywho. I doubt anyone wants the thread to turn into a discussion on TQM and Deming. ?

Eh, that's hard to believe. I mean, I know the marketing says that, but if less weight & cost was not a factor, I doubt you'd see anything but brass gears in reels.

I do not believe the "skill" of assemblers plays a meaningful part in the variability of currently available "mid-tier" reels. Or at least in the type of variability we are discussing here. I also don't think we are discussing "defective" parts. I think we are talking about variances that are within allowable tolerances, or deficiencies in mechanical designs. If "smoothness" in the mechanical design of reel requires gears to be cut, matched, or inspected to a level of precision that is not achievable at the desired price point of the reel, then it isn't a good design.... UNLESS, "smoothness" is not a metric that has been established by the voice of the customer. Which, like I said earlier is probably the case. 85-90% of the general reel buying public doesn't care. The need of an assembler to "inspect" quality into a product is indictive of a poor QMS. As F. Dodge said, "You cannot inspect quality into a product". That is IE'ing 101.

Now we're getting to the big brain questions.

This aligns with my experience. Only I'd move the number to more like sub $275. And I get it. 85-90% of customers will never care, or know the difference. That's how almost all gear centric hobbies are.

You can get the MM Gears in a $179 Curado K. I had a Curado DC with MM gears come out of the box with very obvious drivetrain noise recently. You could feel the buzz of the gears in your palm hand. Ordered a replacement and side by side they were night and day in noise and "feel". The replacement has no perceptible drive train noise or feel out of the box. You have to put your ear to the side plate to even know their are gears inside. So that's my point. At $260, a Curado DC doesn't give a discerning buyer a predictably smooth drivetrain. So what did the MM gears actually accomplish? I'm sure Metaniums come much closer though. Like I said earlier, all individual reels will have their individual nuances, feels, and noises. It's part of anything mechanical. I'm just interested what series of reels, or what price point tend to give a more predictable level of refinement. I mean, You can blindly spend thousands of dollars on a Les Paul, and to the discerning customer you may get a good one, or may get a bad one. Just how it is sometimes. Interesting. I wonder what about their design has lent itself to the predictable performance you've experienced?

Well, usually at some $ point, you do hit the "different" reels. In the Daiwa lineup, when you hit the FFS reels, you are actually paying for a better mechanical design.

Good post. I agree that drive train noise/vibrations take away from the fishing experience in many cases. And I'd also agree that it seems to come down to mechanical design and materials more than price sometimes. There are cheap reels that have a tendency to feel smooth, and more expensive reels that can be "geary".... Due to their design.

Indeed. Now we talkin!! Ha. I don't think it's really worth that, but I like where your head is at. You can get in the weeds pretty fast. Obscure internal design differences, materials, etc. It's a fun thought experiment, but I doubt the topic warrants that much effort. I honestly think I'm starting to realize that (in my case) inexpensive "value" reels make sense, and very high end reels make sense. I haven't been able to land on that middle ground "sweet spot" yet. Knowing myself, it wouldn't surprise me if I end up with a boat full of half Zillions and half $60 Walmart Lews.

This is definitely the case. My question lately is at what point in the $$ scale do craftsmanship, feel, & durability become predictable and dependable. In my experience over the last few years, after buying a decent sampling of "mid-tier" reels... I've not been able to find the answer.

It was silly of me to think that this thread would produce anything meaningful. Although I did warn it was just a bit of a rant. This thread isn't intended to be about catching fish, anecdotal tales of high end gear and Zebco 33's, etc... It was loosely intended to be about the technical merits (or lack of) of spending a little more $$ on "mid-tier" reels over their less expensive counterparts. Phish gets it.

I think you missed the (intended) point of the discussion entirely.

Ha. I have yet to try a Fuego. This topic causes me no misery. I’m just intrigued by it. To your point, I’ve picked up a couple of “cheap” reels recently. Just to see how that goes, lol.

I don’t disagree with that assessment one bit. You want to buy some used Tats and Coastals? ? On that note… Do the 21 JDM Zillion SV TW’s have brass gears?

Great post. Spot on. And I admittedly am more sensitive than the average reel buyer. But I try to be sensitive on an objective level. I really doubt there’s much change, if any at all, in how particular parts (such as pinions) are manufactured, sorted, or QC’d within any one series of reel or design. Meaning, I’d bet my hat you get the same pinion gear in a $150 Tatula as you do in a $250 Tatula Elite. “Features” that are marketable to the general public, and the ever popular bearing count are usually the case for price changes within one reel platform/design. Some reels are obviously built more sloppily than others. Some vary materials in otherwise similar reels. But do I think Lews or others specify different tolerances on the gears in an $80 reel vs a $150 reel of the same mechanical design? I don’t. I spend my fair share of time working with GD&T and modern machining, and I can’t see that being the case.

The exact same could be said for most every other Doyo brand. My buddy has two sub $100 Black Max’s that have been fantastic.

That is incorrect. No reel in the Tatula line (other than the 300 I believe) has a “fully” or “dual” supported pinion. Only the free floating spool Daiwas (Zillion, Steez, etc) have a pinion gear that is rigidly supported on both ends by a bearing.