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ChrisD46

Are Smaller Spinning Rod Guides Better Suited For Braid ?

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Upon looking at a variety of newer spinning rods  - it appears there is a trend for using smaller diameter rod guides than spinning rods produced just a few years ago . I notice this the most with the largest diameter spinning rod guide closest to the spinning reel...

 

It made me consider if this may be due to the popularity of braided line (and possibly to reduce rod weight ?) and if so , do smaller spinning rod guides play a part in added casting distance , better line control - or both when using braided line ?

 

Your thoughts and experiences using braid with newer , smaller rod guide spinning rods ?

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No.  I hated them.  Took a micro guide rod back for a standard guide model.  Guides were still smaller than I am use to.  Didn't like it either, so took it back for store credit.  I want full size guides on my spinning rods.  I tried braid and mono using 3 different reels and couldn't stand the smaller guides.  Far as I am concerned smaller guides seriously hinder casting distance.  Some would disagree.  Maybe they never used standard guides?  :teeth:

 

Micro guides don't bother me nearly as much on a casting rod, but even on a casting rod I prefer standard size...or the guides that are in between.  However, I do have a few casting rods with micro guides.  If I get rid of any of them, it will be to upgrade my rods, not because of the guides.

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I did test one.  My buddy has a custom 8' Connley rod with micros, beautiful rod.  We both use the same cabo 40 reel with 20# braid, I wanted to cast his as I had thought about getting one made myself.  The rod casted very nice, deciding not to go custom the rod I bought with standard spinning guides casts just about the same.  I'm not pro or con, if there is an advantage I didn't see it.

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I believe the concept of constricting the coils which come off of a spinning reel with a few guides and then using small guides the rest of the way has more of an effect if you are using mono or flourocarbon. The effect on braid is minimal due to the supple nature of the line.

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I don't think it is due to braided line. Larger guides than you need are unnecessary. The trend has been using smaller sizes with all rods, or it should be.

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I don't think it is due to braided line. Larger guides than you need are unnecessary. The trend has been using smaller sizes with all rods, or it should be.

 

 

It's the current trend in rod building.  

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It's the current trend in rod building.

Yep. And whatever is trending in the rod building world slowly trickles down into the mainstream. Spiral wraps are even on some production rods now.

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25 years ago their was a trend towards the high frame guide with smaller openings. It was all the rage with those of us that built their own rods. And in my opinion, they sucked. More line wrap, more wind knots and no distance gain. Every few years they make a change so we spend money.

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Every few years they make a change so we spend money.

 

X2  :teeth:

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This subject has been

beating-a-dead-horse_zps0wdxvla4.jpg

But I'll take another whack.

If you're judging a 'micro' guided rod based off of one purchased off the shelf, you're doing am injustice to all properly built 'micro' rods. The manufacturers saw what the custom builders were doing and said "Hey, we can market this and sell a bunch of rods". They started slapping micro guides on everything, with no regard to what they will be used for.

They are not a 'one size fits all' concept. They suck in freezing conditions, when the cottonwood and dogwood starts blowing, when there's feathers on the water and when they are not properly laid out. EVERYTHING sucks in cottonwood, as well as feathers.

There are benefits to using them, you just have to weigh that against the cons and use the best tool to accomplish the job. I'm building myself a new 7'6" ML to drift eggs on the lower Niagara in winter. I'm sure as hell not gonna use 3.5mm or 4mm guides. I'll be using 5.5mm or 6mm guides because that rod will be fished the majority of its life in freezing conditions.

The only way to truly test the difference in performance between micro and standard is build a rod with the standard guides and test it. Then strip the guides and rebuild it with the micros and test it again. Those 6mm guides hanging out there on the end of a 7' rod make a big difference compared to the 4mm. It takes four 4mm guides to equal the weight of a single 6mm (Alconite). Most 7' spinning rods have 5 or 6 running guides. Think how much weight you remove from the most important area on the rod by using the 4mm. The result is a crisper feel and a more responsive rod. You're not talking about ounces, but just fractions of an ounce, but every bit you remove from the tip helps the rod.

Now back to the OP's question. Yes, a rod using braid can benefit from the use of smaller stripper guides. Now that I'm using braid, I've gone from using 20mm and 25mm strippers down to 16mm.

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Everyone is talking guide diameters, but on the first couple guides of a spinning rod it has been found that if you go higher you can go smaller without a penalty.  How much smaller depends on the line characteristics, but you can go smaller.   As for the running guides the only things limiting how small one can go are iceing the passage of knots through the guides.  It's hard to logically argue that a line of .015 inches has a hard time getting through a guide with an I.D. of .125 inches.  

 

Think of it this way, the longer those loops keep their shape, the more the line is slowed by air resistance.  Getting the loops efficiently minimized as soon as possible reduces air resistance making for longer casts.  This is not as important as the elimination of weight on the blank, in my opinion, because we can usually cast far enough to catch fish with almost anything.

 

The sizing and spacing of the guides on a spinning rod, including the heights, is optimized by even considering the reel measurements in the Fuji system.  The American Tackle Microwave system utilizes a patented double ring first guide and has been out there for a few years now and has been proven to be much more than just a marketing gimmick.  The smaller the guides you can use, the lighter the rod, and the more sensitive the rod.  With some of the systems today the whole guide train weighs less than the first two guides of a conventional systems.  

 

I won't even get into the argument that properly sizing and spacing and minimizing size of casting rod guides can result in better casting performance, but that too is true.

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This subject has been

beating-a-dead-horse_zps0wdxvla4.jpg

But I'll take another whack.

If you're judging a 'micro' guided rod based off of one purchased off the shelf, you're doing am injustice to all properly built 'micro' rods. The manufacturers saw what the custom builders were doing and said "Hey, we can market this and sell a bunch of rods". They started slapping micro guides on everything, with no regard to what they will be used for.

They are not a 'one size fits all' concept. They suck in freezing conditions, when the cottonwood and dogwood starts blowing, when there's feathers on the water and when they are not properly laid out. EVERYTHING sucks in cottonwood, as well as feathers.

There are benefits to using them, you just have to weigh that against the cons and use the best tool to accomplish the job. I'm building myself a new 7'6" ML to drift eggs on the lower Niagara in winter. I'm sure as hell not gonna use 3.5mm or 4mm guides. I'll be using 5.5mm or 6mm guides because that rod will be fished the majority of its life in freezing conditions.

The only way to truly test the difference in performance between micro and standard is build a rod with the standard guides and test it. Then strip the guides and rebuild it with the micros and test it again. Those 6mm guides hanging out there on the end of a 7' rod make a big difference compared to the 4mm. It takes four 4mm guides to equal the weight of a single 6mm (Alconite). Most 7' spinning rods have 5 or 6 running guides. Think how much weight you remove from the most important area on the rod by using the 4mm. The result is a crisper feel and a more responsive rod. You're not talking about ounces, but just fractions of an ounce, but every bit you remove from the tip helps the rod.

Now back to the OP's question. Yes, a rod using braid can benefit from the use of smaller stripper guides. Now that I'm using braid, I've gone from using 20mm and 25mm strippers down to 16mm.

I should have noted that what I am seeing is the first one or two of the bottom larger guides are smaller - from there to the tip the guides are about the same size as prior generations  . I'm looking at several 6'9" ~ 7'0" ML rods for drop shot / ned rig (all have smaller bottom two guides than my older  spinning rods) . Lastly I should note - what ever rod I select will never see more than 10lb. ~ 12lb. braid as a main line used with the rod .

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I should have noted that what I am seeing is the first one or two of the bottom larger guides are smaller - from there to the tip the guides are about the same size as prior generations  . I'm looking at several 6'9" ~ 7'0" ML rods for drop shot / ned rig (all have smaller bottom two guides than my older  spinning rods) . Lastly I should note - what ever rod I select will never see more than 10lb. ~ 12lb. braid as a main line used with the rod .

With 10 or 12 pound braid you can use just about any guide train successfully.  That light of braid is very forgiving.  For rods that I am planning only to use light braid on I would start with a 16.  Anyone wanting more info on the current guide train philosophies can get really smart on Fuji's by visiting their website at 

 

http://anglersresource.net/

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With 10 or 12 pound braid you can use just about any guide train successfully.  That light of braid is very forgiving.  For rods that I am planning only to use light braid on I would start with a 16.  Anyone wanting more info on the current guide train philosophies can get really smart on Fuji's by visiting their website at 

 

http://anglersresource.net/

 

 

Thanks for the link.  I watched the KR Concept video.  They didn't show an example of the older style large guides, but I have to think that the larger loops flowing through the guides would affect casting distance much less than the example of the micro guides.  Line waves really got messed up on those suckers leading me to believe my own experience with micro guides on a spinning rod is closer to the truth.  I could get better distance with a 40 or so year old 6' Berkley Lightning than I could with a 7' Prodigy....either with micro guides or what they are now calling standard guides.  I tried both....with braid and with mono using at least 3 different reels.

 

However, I am definitely wanting to try out some rods with Fuji's KR Concept.  Looks like the cat's meow.  :teeth:

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If you truly want a high performance spinning rod, then have someone build one for you on a RodGeeks C473MHXS with Micro Wave guides.  I built one for myself this spring and it is unbelievable.  The extra soft tip and micro wave guides allow me to cast an unweighted grub like it's a 3 oz swimbait.

 

You're looking at less than $200 in parts plus labor and you can NOT buy a better spinning rod, period.

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If you truly want a high performance spinning rod, then have someone build one for you on a RodGeeks C473MHXS

 

I have one of those in silver waiting to be built as my new tube rod.  No hurry though cause it's getting one of the new JDM Stradics and they won't be available for a while!

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Keep in mind that distance is not the whole story.  The lighter the guide train, the more sensitive the rod.  At least with high modulus blanks this is true.  If you are using a low modulus graphite, or glass, you might not notice the advantage of lighter guides.  

 

Cast an unweighted grub like a 3 oz swimbait?  I respectfully call a "hyperbole alert."  

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hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/
noun
 
  1. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
     
     
     
     

It's up to the reader, but, it could have been a 

 

sim·i·le
ˈsiməlē/
noun
 
  1. a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g., as brave as a lioncrazy like a fox )

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Let's just say that arguing that casting an unweighted grub with Microwave is the same as casting a 3 oz swimbait with conventional is BS.  BS?  Look it up.  Microwave is a good system, but it is not magic.  It's major advantage is in rod sensitivity due to low mass guides.  A secondary advantage is that it is very easy to set up the spacing of the guides.  The casting distance advantage is debatable, but minor at best.

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This subject has been

beating-a-dead-horse_zps0wdxvla4.jpg

But I'll take another whack.

If you're judging a 'micro' guided rod based off of one purchased off the shelf, you're doing am injustice to all properly built 'micro' rods. The manufacturers saw what the custom builders were doing and said "Hey, we can market this and sell a bunch of rods". They started slapping micro guides on everything, with no regard to what they will be used for.

They are not a 'one size fits all' concept. They suck in freezing conditions, when the cottonwood and dogwood starts blowing, when there's feathers on the water and when they are not properly laid out. EVERYTHING sucks in cottonwood, as well as feathers.

There are benefits to using them, you just have to weigh that against the cons and use the best tool to accomplish the job. I'm building myself a new 7'6" ML to drift eggs on the lower Niagara in winter. I'm sure as hell not gonna use 3.5mm or 4mm guides. I'll be using 5.5mm or 6mm guides because that rod will be fished the majority of its life in freezing conditions.

The only way to truly test the difference in performance between micro and standard is build a rod with the standard guides and test it. Then strip the guides and rebuild it with the micros and test it again. Those 6mm guides hanging out there on the end of a 7' rod make a big difference compared to the 4mm. It takes four 4mm guides to equal the weight of a single 6mm (Alconite). Most 7' spinning rods have 5 or 6 running guides. Think how much weight you remove from the most important area on the rod by using the 4mm. The result is a crisper feel and a more responsive rod. You're not talking about ounces, but just fractions of an ounce, but every bit you remove from the tip helps the rod.

Now back to the OP's question. Yes, a rod using braid can benefit from the use of smaller stripper guides. Now that I'm using braid, I've gone from using 20mm and 25mm strippers down to 16mm.

Well stated. The guide train on a spinning rod is critical to top performance. Guide height, diameter and spacing are ideally adjusted according to reel, line rod length and to some extent power and action. Of course an off the shelf rod needs to accomodate the "average" fisherman, but who excatly is that? The answer will vary from maker to maker and so will the design and implementation of concepts and components. You should't by or at any concept based on one or two experiences that may not be the best reperesentation. 

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Let's just say that arguing that casting an unweighted grub with Microwave is the same as casting a 3 oz swimbait with conventional is BS.  BS?  Look it up.  Microwave is a good system, but it is not magic.  It's major advantage is in rod sensitivity due to low mass guides.  A secondary advantage is that it is very easy to set up the spacing of the guides.  The casting distance advantage is debatable, but minor at best.

 

 

I was not arguing...You were.  I used it as an exaggerated and unrealistic example to make a point.  Everyone else but you seemed to grasp that concept.

 

And since I have only built 6 spinning rods with MicroWave guides this year, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

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I was not arguing...You were.  I used it as an exaggerated and unrealistic example to make a point.  Everyone else but you seemed to grasp that concept.

 

And since I have only built 6 spinning rods with MicroWave guides this year, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

exaggerated and unrealistic.  That is exactly the point I was making.

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Good Job captain obvious.  :clap: For making a point that did not need to be made.

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I have a 6'6 spinning rod with micro guides and I love it. I feel more control during casts and great sensitivity with drop shots. I'm using 6lb co-polymer right now.. but will be using braid soon.. so I'll let you know!

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