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Hey folks -- Running into an issue with the trim, and since I've never had any issues wanted to bounce it across y'all to see if I diagnosed it correctly.

 

1999 Yamaha 90 outboard, "C" IIRC although I don't think that matters.  If it does matter, it's whatever came on the 90SS Skeeter. 

But I'm 99% positive it's C.

 

Trim works up fine, but only clicks when you attempt to go down.  Trim motor does not "try" to run, just a click from the solenoid.

I checked voltage at the solenoid.  Blue across black, 12v when I go up. 

Green across black, 12v when I go down.

I traced (and shook while attempting down trim) the wiring and found no cuts, or shorts.

 

At this point, I have to suspect I either have a bad connection at the motor itself, or the motor is failing.  I would have expected it to fail both directions, however.  I did not expect the motor to work in one direction and have no reaction in the other.  That makes me think maybe I have a bad connection somewhere internally.  (Unless there are two separate motors in there?  Doesn't make sense, but IDK.)

 

Any thoughts?  Am I going down the wrong rabbit hole, or is it time to pull things apart and dig deeper?

 

 

 

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I assume it is like other brands in that there is a part ( can’t remember what it is called) one that controls up and one down.  I had that happen on an Optimax.  I replaced both.  They were only about $30 each.  I’m betting that is your problem.

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5 minutes ago, Jig Man said:

I assume it is like other brands in that there is a part ( can’t remember what it is called) one that controls up and one down.  I had that happen on an Optimax.  I replaced both.  They were only about $30 each.  I’m betting that is your problem.

Do you mean something else beyond the solenoid on the engine?  From the looks of it, the solenoid wires run directly into the motor housing.  I have not taken it off yet, but that's what it looks like.  There may be more, and I certainly don't know...

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Ok, so I am more convinced it's the tilt motor.  I bypassed the solenoid, just to make sure that I wasn't missing something with the multi-meter.  Up fine, no down.  Then after reattaching the wires, up stopped.  A few mins later, I bumped up, mostly one of the frustrated "why aren't you working" things, and it worked fine on up.  I'm guessing I've gotten some rust/corrosion.  I guess I will pull off the motor and see what I see, unless I hear something more definitive that indicates I don't need to.  Watched a quick video, not looking forward to taking it off...

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Is it a two wire or a three wire trim motor?  If it's a two wire, I doubt it's the motor.  If it's s three wire, possible motor but without voltage checks on the motor, you are guessing.

A two wire motor works by the relays reversing the polarity to the motor.  Connect a DVM across the two wires and you should have 12VDC when the trim button is pressed.  The meter is just changing from - negative to + positive

A three wire motor works with one wire being the common (battery negative) and one of the other two wires is the 12V up and the other wire is the 12V down.  Connect the meters black lead to the common and the red lead to one of the other wires, do the up/down buttons and one of the should show 12VDC on the meter.  Switch the red lead to the other wire and it should show 12VDC with the switch in the other direction.

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2 hours ago, Way2slow said:

Is it a two wire or a three wire trim motor?  If it's a two wire, I doubt it's the motor.  If it's s three wire, possible motor but without voltage checks on the motor, you are guessing.

A two wire motor works by the relays reversing the polarity to the motor.  Connect a DVM across the two wires and you should have 12VDC when the trim button is pressed.  The meter is just changing from - negative to + positive

A three wire motor works with one wire being the common (battery negative) and one of the other two wires is the 12V up and the other wire is the 12V down.  Connect the meters black lead to the common and the red lead to one of the other wires, do the up/down buttons and one of the should show 12VDC on the meter.  Switch the red lead to the other wire and it should show 12VDC with the switch in the other direction.

It is a two wire system, blue and green, with what I assume is a common ground through the casing.  So, in essence I think it would work like a three wire system.  When I tested the solenoid I connected to the ground and to the blue.  Hit up trim, got ~ +12v, down got about +.55v.  When I connected to the green, I got ~ +12v when pressing "down" and +.55v when pressing up.

 

I attached an image of the solenoid, and a replacement trim motor to clarify.

91285335_trimmotor.PNG.42fdd01aad3b7fd89ddb19dbe598328e.PNG

solenoid.PNG

 

 

 

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I should add, however, that is NOT what the motor assembly looks like with the original.  It looks like two parts.  I assume the replacements are built the same basically, just enclosed in one piece.

20190804_172200222552.thumb.jpg.87f9bfbd15cd420cef2b12034f9e9cca.jpg

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OK, what ever you think. 

Since I don't have a schematic and almost never mess with Yamaha's, however, I've never seen one that used the case as ground, it's to unreliable.  To me, it sounds like you are about to replace a good trim motor. If it was mine, I would be making sure how it works and doing a little more voltage checking of the relay.  On two wire motors, you can usually connect the two wires across a battery and it run one way, switch the terminal the other way and it runs the other way.

Since Yamaha basically copied OMC's, I would think theirs would work that way also.

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My Merc did the same thing, it would go down but not up. At first I thought it might be the switch, but it did the same with all the switches. It turned out one of the wires had come off and I didn't notice it. I know you took you wires off and put the m back on. Take them off again and clean the posts and connectors. You might not be getting a good connection

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40 minutes ago, looking45 said:

My Merc did the same thing, it would go down but not up. At first I thought it might be the switch, but it did the same with all the switches. It turned out one of the wires had come off and I didn't notice it. I know you took you wires off and put the m back on. Take them off again and clean the posts and connectors. You might not be getting a good connection

I was hoping the same thing initially, but posts and terminals were in great shape.  Zero corrosion at the connections.  It did have a good coating of grease on it.  Maybe I can try wiping things down and reconnecting, worth a shot.

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52 minutes ago, Way2slow said:

OK, what ever you think. 

Since I don't have a schematic and almost never mess with Yamaha's, however, I've never seen one that used the case as ground, it's to unreliable.  To me, it sounds like you are about to replace a good trim motor. If it was mine, I would be making sure how it works and doing a little more voltage checking of the relay.  On two wire motors, you can usually connect the two wires across a battery and it run one way, switch the terminal the other way and it runs the other way.

Since Yamaha basically copied OMC's, I would think theirs would work that way also.

Ok, so I was going to go check the voltages again and make sure I didn't miss something and was now getting 12v both directions across either one - and suddenly motor fired going down.  Monkeyed with the trim switch a bit, and got the odd occasional down.  Solenoid clicks every time, but motor only engages occasionally.  Pulled the switch and bridged wires manually, worked fine...both ways.  So YAY, it is NOT the motor or the solenoid, but the switch!  I guess its sending enough juice to attempt to do something, but not enough to fully engage it.  IDK, never would have guessed the switch since it was clicking, but seems to be the case!

 

Thanks for suggestion of more voltage checking, I don't know that I would have figured the switch for it else wise.  Moral of the story, a switch can go bad and still be good enough to make things click...but not good enough to run the motor.  Never would have guessed that...

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Just curiuos, how do you get the engine back down...bleed it?

If the motor runs the engine up it should run it down. 

Definately clean all the grease off and any corrosion oxides. I use a product on electrical terminals called DeoxIT D5 after after cleaning. Grease or vasoline after the connections are clean, tight and working is OK.

My guess is you have either a bad micro switch so solenoid.

Tom

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10 minutes ago, WRB said:

Just curiuos, how do you get the engine back down...bleed it?

If the motor runs the engine up it should run it down. 

Definately clean all the grease off and any corrosion oxides. I use a product on electrical terminals called DeoxIT D5 after after cleaning. Grease or vasoline after the connections are clean, tight and working is OK.

My guess is you have either a bad micro switch so solenoid.

Tom

Engine has been left up until I released it earlier today to check the impeller (totally unrelated).  Boat's not in the water, and hasn't been in far too long.  Looking to finally get a chance to take it out again next weekend, and was doing some prep and ran into the issue.  And yeah, it appears to be the switch on the throttle (only one it has).  Now I just have to track down the right size switch.

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Hey, while were talking switches, anyone know where I can get a 10mm x 15mm 3 way momentary rocker switch?  lol

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It doesn't have a trim switch on the side of the motor in the lower cover?  If not, I would be adding me a switch so I didn't have to walk to the control handle every time I needed to raise and lower the motor putting the plug, etc in.

Also one on the bow.  Many times I need to tilt the motor up when fishing.

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16 minutes ago, Way2slow said:

It doesn't have a trim switch on the side of the motor in the lower cover?  If not, I would be adding me a switch so I didn't have to walk to the control handle every time I needed to raise and lower the motor putting the plug, etc in.

Also one on the bow.  Many times I need to tilt the motor up when fishing.

Nope, it only has the one.  And YES it is annoying...  I had planned on completely reworking the boat year before last.  New carpet, new switches, additional switches etc.  Have the stuff, but we finally found a house that fit what we were looking for and other projects took over.  All I ended up doing was putting in the new seats and calling it "ok for now"...

 

Course I haven't had much time to have it out on the water either way, so... uggh.

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We have shops that cater to the marine market like auto parts stores that service that market. Try going online and look for Yamaha outboard engine service and parts. You will need to know the serial number, year and hp. The shift, trim and excellerator control is a Yamaha product, not the boat mfr.

Try spraying the switch with DeoxIt, works for me most of the time.

Tom

 

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16 hours ago, Bassun said:

I was hoping the same thing initially, but posts and terminals were in great shape.  Zero corrosion at the connections.  It did have a good coating of grease on it.  Maybe I can try wiping things down and reconnecting, worth a shot.

It's not just corrosion. Oxidation can prevent a good connection too. Make sure everything is shiny. 

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One other thing, you mentioned the terminals had a good coat of grease and you wiped that off.  Most likely what that was is dielectric grease and you should have been putting more on rather than wiping off.  That stuff should be your best friend when dealing with electrical connections on boats and cars.  It helps keep the moisture out and prevents corrosion and oxidation of terminals.   Your local auto parts stores have it made by Permatex in large tubes, get some and put a shot of it in every electrical connecter you have, then plug and unplug the connectors a couple of times to get a good, clean mechanical connection.  Do your spark plug wires also.   The only place you have to be careful with it is if you take a rocker switch apart, since the contact just touch and don't slide, you can actually cause it to not make connection with the grease.

Needless to say, with all the cars, boats and motors I have, it's like my AmEx card, I don't leave home without it.

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On 8/4/2019 at 12:42 PM, Jig Man said:

I assume it is like other brands in that there is a part ( can’t remember what it is called) one that controls up and one down.  I had that happen on an Optimax.  I replaced both.  They were only about $30 each.  I’m betting that is your problem.

X2. 

 

I had same problem with my Mercury 150 and my friend replaced the two solenoids and the motor has performed flawlessly ever since.

 

But it was problem when it happened on the water.

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42 minutes ago, Way2slow said:

One other thing, you mentioned the terminals had a good coat of grease and you wiped that off.  Most likely what that was is dielectric grease and you should have been putting more on rather than wiping off.  That stuff should be your best friend when dealing with electrical connections on boats and cars.  It helps keep the moisture out and prevents corrosion and oxidation of terminals.   Your local auto parts stores have it made by Permatex in large tubes, get some and put a shot of it in every electrical connecter you have, then plug and unplug the connectors a couple of times to get a good, clean mechanical connection.  Do your spark plug wires also.   The only place you have to be careful with it is if you take a rocker switch apart, since the contact just touch and don't slide, you can actually cause it to not make connection with the grease.

Needless to say, with all the cars, boats and motors I have, it's like my AmEx card, I don't leave home without it.

Truth! 

 

When I buy a car I pull off every connector I can get my hands on and put it in the terminals.  I have never sold a car due to "electrical gremlins".  Despite manufactures using rubber seals on connectors, corrosion in the electrical system is the biggest killer of vehicles that are otherwise well maintained, boats, cycles, cars, anything that uses precise electrical signals.  Not only does it keep moisture out, it helps maintain conductivity of the connection.

 

 

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So problem was pretty simple... popped open the switch. 

Cleaned it.
Works great.

The end :D

1.jpg

I would show the other contacts, but apparently I've hit my image limit, lol.

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Oh, I should say that I generally use WD40 for cleaning contacts, and connections.  In this case, I used WD40 and some elbow grease.  I always have WD40 around, so it's an easy go to :D

2.jpg

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Just to add to the conversation, my trim went inop on my merc 150 recently. Did all the voltage checks ect. Had voltage at all the switches and relays.  Turned out the wires in the shift/throttle lever were catching and chaffed through. The green and blue wire were shorting to the housing. I guess improper routing from the factory or dealer. Just something to keep in mind if you have trim issues.

Shifter.jpg

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