Hey guys, had a quick question regarding bearing upgrades on some newer Bantams and Steez SV TWs.

For higher-end reels, is it actually worth upgrading the spool bearings to ceramic?

A few buddies of mine run Curados and have swapped theirs out, and it seems like they’re getting a little more castin g distance. Their reels are also super smooth and will free-spool forever.

My Bantam and Steez are already smooth as butter, but they definitely don’t free-spool like theirs do with the bearing upgrades. Not sure if that’s just the nature of these reels or if ceramics would actually make a noticeable difference.

Just wondering if it’s worth putting the money into on higher-end reels like these, or if the gains are pretty minimal.

If it is worth it, what bearings should I be looking at?

Thanks!

For high end reels like Bantam or Steez, no, the ceramic or ceramic hybrid bearing upgrade are not necessary. They won't bring much extra distance as the stocking bearing are already VERY good. Your friend's Curado has improved distance mainly because the stock bearings are not that good and the spool is relatively heavy.

They won't bring extra smoothness either. By "smoothness" I mean the buttery feeling when reeling, especially under load, not free spooling time. In fact, some ceramic hybrid bearings will decrease the smoothness you feel.

They will bring extra free spooling time, as they usually run dry without oil. They'll also bring easiness to casting, so you can reach the same distance with less effort. And they also require less maintenance, so you don't have to oil them or clean them as often. Eventually, they'll also bring noise, usually after a season.

BUT, if you're look at BFS reels, ceramic bearing upgrade would be a different story.

High end reels come with high end bearings. You ain't gaining anything by upgrading to ceramics.

But quality lower end reels like the new Tat100, that is an upgrade that could make much more sense.

That said, all my non DC reels have zpi, kusugi works, ktf, hedgehog ceramics. Most of which came from me buying used reels, and they were already installed. One day i decide to sell the reel, but keep the bearings, and now i have a mountain of quality bearings 🙂

48 minutes ago, NothingButDinks said:

Not sure if that’s just the nature of these reels or if ceramics would actually make a noticeable difference.

Some reels, notably magnetic braking systems like Daiwa uses, will maintain some braking force even with the settings turned to minimum whereas a simple centrifugal block system can completely turn their braking off. Free spool tests can be pretty deceptive for this reason. It doesn't really matter that it seems to free spool forever on minimum settings because you're not going to cast it with no brakes, anyhow.

If you spin the spool and it barely spins or just a few revolutions, clean your bearings and lube with light oil. If you spin it and you're getting a decent number of spins, but it just isn't spinning 'for days' like your friend's reel then you're right where you need to be.

Jun Sonada (JapanTackle) has done a great job of rating casting distance upgrades.

I cropped this out so it doesn't include the Ambassadeur (slaved LW) upgrades.

The single greatest distance gain comes from reducing loaded spool mass (one reason people like mono better than fluoro).

He accurately rates hybrid-ceramic bearing upgrade alone as 2-3% cast distance improvement. This isn't worth $30+ for 2 spool bearings. He gives up to 4% more cast distance with improved oil in spool bearings. Making the move to unshielded hybrid ceramic and adding a drop of racy bearing oil every month will give you that 7% distance improvement.

The next step is microbearings, which adds up further, and some of these have wide load range. You would get a noticeable improvement right now with a swap to Hedgehog Air HD bearings, and still retain a wide load range.

The greatest difference I measured between stock spool bearings and unshielded (wide-load-range) micros was 15% difference between Daiwa stock shielded CRCC and KTF/IXA double-row (hybrid ceramic).

Run away from zirconia full-ceramic - they're loud as the end of the world and don't have the load capacity of steel, SiC or SiN hybrid ceramic.

I fish a lot of salt shore, where last word matters reaching the fish. Here, I use full-ceramic silicon nitride, and this is limiting weight to one ounce.

My surf Ambassadeur CT and CS Rocket get full-size unshielded hybrid ceramic, and I'm casting up to 4 oz.

I’m in no way shape or form an expert on anything fishing reel related and especially when it comes to upgrades or heck even basic servicing of reels. But I will say that I have 2 Favorite Soleus bait cast reels and they both came with ceramic spool bearings and I for one do not find them that loud, obnoxious or whatever negative things are said about them. I will add that although I only really used one on a medium heavy rod with appropriate sized baits, mainly a 3/8 ounce bladed jig or 1/2 ounce spinner bait I was seriously impressed with the casting distance and more so the ease in which the reel casted. Take this with a grain of salt if you wish as YMMV.

42 minutes ago, Eric 26 said:

But I will say that I have 2 Favorite Soleus bait cast reels and they both came with ceramic spool bearings and I for one do not find them that loud, obnoxious or whatever negative things are said about them

"Ceramic" bearings covers a pretty wide range of material combinations. A full Zirconium bearing, generally ran with no oil, will be very noticeably loud. A hybrid bearing, with stainless races and SiC balls, generally ran with a light oil, won't be very noticeable at all.

Most bearings sold as ceramic bearings for these purposes are of the hybrid style.

I'll mention the one thing I have not read yet in this thread.

And for the record I run full ceramics in all of my baitcast reels except the round reels. The cost is minimal. I pay on average anywhere from $7 to $12 per bearing in part because I but them in bulk. Some of my buddies want them so we throw in together to negotiate a better deal.

But the primary benefit not mentioned here yet though one came close mentioning "The single greatest distance gain comes from reducing loaded spool mass" -is not the distance gain factor connected to reduced mass. And another member got real close with this statement: "I was seriously impressed with the casting distance and more so the ease in which the reel casted. Almost there... I'll go ahead and point out what others were alluding to.

Full ceramic bearings weigh about half of what stainless steel bearings weigh. Maybe just under half in weight.

So the key gain going with full ceramics is not measured in distance. It is that the overall weight and mass of the spool's rotational ability is changed in that by reducing bearing weight, you can now reduce lure weight some and get spools rotating faster and with lighter weight lures.

There is the possibility of faster spool startups with less weight, and with the reduced weight, there is less weight to develop less kinetic energy during a cast meaning the spools can be slowed and stopped easier with less amount of kinetic energy present possibly reducing backlash potential requiring less braking.

I think this is the key gain because it gives a combo a wider variety of uses now that it might not have had with stainless steel bearings limiting use by the weight needed to operate it.

As said casting distance increases are minimal and may not make it worth it. But the real noticeable use full ceramics may excel at would be in pitching and skipping situations.

But with as cheap as they are today why not give them a try?

I recommend avoiding ceramic hybrids because you gain almost nothing there. And they still require oil because the races are still steel and can rust. They may be quieter, but gain is very minimal. Another reason to avoid hybrids is the game one particular country of origin has been playing on us is that we out here on the tail end of the buying game cannot tell if the bearings we are purchasing have full ceramic balls inside or ceramic coated bearings. Some use small balls inside coated with a ceramic coating. These have been known to not be as durable as full ceramic.

Most bearing companies will not correctly identify them for us. So it is buyer beware which is why going full ceramic is more certain for us out here. And the most to gain, but as stated they can be noisy which I personally don't mind and kind of like because now my ears can help me judge my casts. And its not that loud really.

I would think another issue with the gain results going full ceramics depends on the reel. If the reel has any sort of magnetic braking, those cannot ever be fully turned off and so whatever gains full ceramics could offer might not be as much or as noticeable with magnetic braking reels as compared to centrifugal braking reels which is what I use exclusively and I can turn off all the brakes and go to a true free spinning spool which would offer full advantage of whatever gains are there.

And you can purchase different ceramic materials:

Zirconia for about $7 each purchased 1 at a time. Bulk can be slightly less.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/387414266150

Silicon Nitride for just under $12 each

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265932037068

Make sure to get the correct sizes for your reels!

I have been running full ceramics in my Shimano baitcast reels for years and just to test their durability I have not touched the bearings in years, probably 3 or 4 years now in some reels just to see how far down the road I can get with them. No issues so far. Love them. I would not go back to stainless bearings or hybrids. I am very happy with where my Shimano's are at now with the full ceramics.

I also replace the pinion bearing in my reels with full ceramics because they are located right next to the spool and are the first bearings to get wet and rust up. Going full ceramic there is done simply to prevent rust, and reels can work longer without as much regular maintenance and be more resilient in saltwater conditions.

And if used in saltwater, one might consider going full ceramic in other areas as well like line guide bearings often rust up. Going full ceramic puts a stop to that and gives the user more use time from the reels before servicing and maintenance.

But to each their own!

What bulldog1935 said renforces what I think. A good cleaning and the right oil will give you more distance and performance than ceramic bearings. I tried ceramics with limited results. If the original bearings are not too good, the improvement is significant. If it's a high end reel, not that much.

The one spot I have for full-zirconia ceramic is the small sizes, both for handle knob bearings in salt, and "upgrading the upgrades" in Ambassadeur LW. This '77 4500C has full Avail alloy+BB level wind upgrades, mass-less and slick zirconia LW pawl, and I tried those tiny 630, 730 and 740 full-zirconia to take Japan Ambassadeur BFS-upgrades to the next step. It also has full-silicon-nitride spool bearings.

I'm not recommending anybody go here, unless you're in my salt-shore-extreme-BFS niche, but it's a feeling of power when this little combo with 6-1/2' 2-hand rod sends a 3-g microjig to surface slashes 150' out. None of this should be possible (maybe if you work the physics)

Likewise, on the day I needed it, my little red 2500CIT in post above (combo below) was throwing 1/4-oz jerkbait to 200' (I showed the measurement on google earth). More impressive, the PureLure 7'8" Seabed tubular-tip BF rod was hooking fish 180' away.

Aside from this extreme BFS niche, I'll double up that you should see consistent results making the swap to unshielded hybrid ceramic or AirHD with a single drop of good bearing oil, if you keep up with the maintenance. If that's too much for you, stick with the quality NMB shielded bearings that come in most Japanese and Korean reels.

Since I have the photo, here's my Steez with KTF/IXA MBS spool bearings, equivalent to AirHD, Ray's SV spool.

I was once told by a seemingly knowledgeable reel repair guy, that swapping out the oil on the existing bearings on any decent reels was more of an upgrade than ceramics. Been some years, but I believe that is how he put it.

This was in regards to my Abu Garcia 5501 reels, which were my workhorse steelhead reels for a long long time, but the way he stated it, included most models of reels.

I can say, the ceramic bearing upgrades I did, didn't really make a difference, were great reels either way...

I fish a lot of Bantam's, never found a desire or need to make them "better".

If you talk to the guys actually measuring cast distance, Tournament casters using C3CT derivatives will tell you unshielded hybrid ceramic + ultra-low-viscosity bearing oil makes All the difference - that's the one variable they have, making 1000' 10-oz casts.

The configuration is the exact opposite of all the other reels we're talking about here.

With Ambassadeur Ultracast, the spindle is fixed, inner bearing race is fixed on the spindle, and outer bearing race rotates with the spool.

All the other reels we're discussing, including older Ambassadeur C before Ultracast, have spindle fixed in the spool, bearing outer race fixed in the frame, and bearing inner race spins with the spool.

All the physics sublties of ceramic ball and micro-ball reduced inertia add up to distance.

Thanks everyone for the input, his was really helpful.

After reading through all of this, I’m just not going to change anything on the Bantam or Steez.

They’re already great reels, and I’m not interested in chasing a few percentage points in casting distance.

The explanations about braking systems, spool mass, and how free-spool tests can be misleading really helped put things into perspective. For what I’m doing and how I fish, it sounds like keeping the stock bearings clean and properly oiled makes more sense than swapping parts.

Really appreciate everyone sharing their experience and taking the time to explain it all. Learned a lot from this thread.

I don’t have much new to add but I’ll chime in. First, better free spool has a positive effect on casting ( mostly in accuracy but some in distance depending on circumstances) but has its limits. 99% of the time properly flushed, oiled stock bearings will cast as far as you can set a hook. Reel tuning and upgrades are largely an enthusiast endeavor that’s why ask questions of customers about their expectations before making recommendations. Jun’s chart can’t be taken as gospel because there are so many variables that affect casting. I don’t dismiss it altogether but view it as an educated opinion. IMO the best bang for your buck in efforts to improve casting/free spool are:

1. Flush and lube stock bearings

2. Super Tune where design dictates

3. Bearing changes

4. Spool changes

Last thought, I view ceramic bearings as a high performance mod where longevity takes a back seat. Hence running them dry. I think your conclusion makes total sense.

I just thought of something else. I’ve been seeing videos on FB of a guy “tuning” reels showing how long the handle can spin and free spool. He set the spool spinning by slapping the handle then pushing the thumb bar. A professional should realize the needless extra stress that puts on a pinion gear. These videos and others like it are smoke and mirrors whether intentional or not. Don’t fall for them like all too many uninformed anglers do. Later

You replace all the internal bearings to ceramic hybrids, run them dry, do it on a 200size reel full of fluoro, and have a heavy 100mm handle, and the handle will sping forever if you free spin it. It really means nothing, same with those 1 minute plus free spool vids you see on youtube. This is how Boca Bearings marketed their overpriced bearings from Asia🙂

Lets haul this back into reality a bit. I've ridden 20,000 mi on loose-ball SiN in bicycle hubs, so longevity isn't an issue.

Life of SiC and SiN bearing balls and races is comparable to bearing steel. Relative hardness says SiN and SiC should out-last steel. Of course if you push any bearing beyond rated load, it will wear out.

Specifically, zirconia has only 70% of the load capacity of steel, SiC, and SiN.

Spin test as described is a gimmick. Freespool flip has its use for checking spool start, test for friction, and is a pretty good tool for finding a starting set for casting brakes, but a long spin is a result of inertia, which we're trying to get rid of. What you gain with rotating-mass/inertia reduction is quicker spool start, higher lure velocity at release, which is distance (ballistics), and less brake force needed to achieve the brake result you need, which is also distance.

Regarding mag brake and ceramics, no question you get a brake effect on steel bearing races and balls near mag brakes in the palm plate. Full-ceramic, such as SiN in the blue reel have no Lenz force, will not stop abruptly under mag brake, but at the end of a free spin, will actually back up to the spool balance (imbalance load ~0.01g). On the blue BFS reel, SiN is the edge for casting 3" weightless senko and 1/16-oz jigs. Where I use it in my salt reels, it's totally impervious, and needs no special attention with salt use.

Also no reason to worry about mix and match. My ultimate light-distance Steez, 4-g AMO spool, has SiN 1030 (683) in palm plate with no Lenz force, and the slickest main spool bearing I could configure was IXA 740 in Momo purple spacer and Daiwa bearing sleeve.