Paul Roberts

bch_2970 wrote: I think there is something to that. I always attributed the larger bass caught in coldwater periods to habitat change that makes prey more available, and vulnerable -dying weedbeds, weakened small fishes (not going to survive the winter), shad moving shallow, etc... But, on the flip-side, I simply don't catch small bass (7-10 inch), the hordes I have to try to avoid in summer. Anyone else notice this? Senile1 wrote: That's the bugger. And why fishing just isn't a science. We have to juggle a lot of variables. I guess I'm all about trying to find the key elements, and then develop a hierarchy of priorities based on best information. Wish me luck on what might end up a fool's journey. Lucid1, thanks for the input. You're in MO. Curious, are the vegetation beds in your pond still alive and intact? Do you know your water temps presently? (Or are you playing smart and fishing the shad-based water? LOL).

Sam, I had three rigs with me on those days, one was a drop-shot rig. I tried a 4"worm, a 4" fluke, a 4" and 3" Storm DS minnow -all to no avail. I'm certain some bass saw them. Will continue with it and see what comes. I may just need better conditions (cop out?), or a better trigger.

Great thread. Thanks Crestliner, Matt825, and WayneP, for those details.

Google: lake turnover maybe add: limnology

Most bass don't get lockjaw, or stop feeding, if that's what you mean, in winter. I've read that in some waters bass can be less active than in others. My guess is this has to do with prey availability, which can be chronic, and/or change year to year. Although overall activity is greatly diminished, bass will feed all winter and do move about. Most telemetry studies have shown this, at least in still waters, and a few individual bass were even known to make regular long movements during winter. I think a lot of anglers picture bass just laying bottom, or suspended, and completely inactive for the winter. This just doesn't seem to be the case in many, of not most, waters. But the question here is: How do they react to lures? Smallmouths are more apt to be active feeders during winter than largemouths (although this could be water body specific or a matter of certain conditions). I just read a bit of research where the investigators were trying to capture, through the ice of a natural pond, 10 SM and 10 LM for blood samples. They reported that they caught all 10 SM on the first day trying. It took them days to get the 10 LM. The SM would take a live minnow dangled on a hook. By video observation they discovered the LM's would only stare. They finally caught their LMs by teasing them with a small marabou jig. Interestingly, these LM (10-14inch) cruised by the lens in the same wolfpacks we see in summer. As to bass' general response to lures: There's a BIG misconception about bass as some kind of super-predator that can score at will. This just isn't so. (The possible exception MIGHT be uniquely large bass that have figured out something unique, coupled with certain locational elements.) Most bass born either get eaten, or starve to death. Although predators are truly super athletes, so too are their prey. Co-evolution of predator and prey goes a long way in explaining the forms, functions, and behaviors of both. Mature bass, the ones we like to catch, have learned a few things. They know when prey is vulnerable and when it's less likely to be so. This revolves, as far as I understand it so far, around immediate environmental conditions, physical elements of the habitat, and prey behavior and position relative to the bass. Mature bass are opportunists, and won't waste energy. There is too much at stake: The prime directive is to reproduce. To do this bass need to eat well. To do this they have to be able to catch prey. Prey has to be available, and vulnerable. If these parameters aren't met they'll lay low. They can do so longer in cold water than hot. Bass simply need less food in winter to maintain their basic metabolic processes -growth will have to wait. They are also substantially weaker in terms of performance (swimming speed and duration) in winter. As an added burden, cold water is MUCH denser than warm. It must slow them considerably. I've yet to see a study where this was taken into account. It would be interesting to know how much water density accounts for performance issues. There might be a performance differential between bass and certain prey species. There was a time when anglers believed that food in a fish's stomach will rot in cold water, because they can't digest it fast enough. This is untrue. Bass can even eat a lot in cold water, if food is available, and vulnerable. One such situation is when shad become cold shocked during severe winter weather. Bass fishing can be spectacular at these times, coinciding with unseasonably cold winter temps! It's because there are lots of weakened and dying, and easy to catch, shad available. If this were a rare event not many bass would likely participate. But in some waters, or periods of years with appropriate shad numbers, bass will catch onto this motherlode. A friend of mine who has fished this scenario says that in years with very large die-offs, the fishing can be poorer. He feels that the bass become sated. Another BIG misconception (just read any lure advertisement) is that bass can't resist certain lures. First, consider the above. Second, bass can learn that lures are dangerous. This has been seen in all types of angling studies, in the lab and in natural waters. It's a fact (although some lures are more difficult to discern as dangerous than others). They can learn pretty fast too, and can even remember certain lures for MONTHS! Thus, the game of angling is played when and where there are conditions that increase activity levels (esp those that reach down into the food chain), under dim lighting conditions, with an appropriate amount of stealth, and appropriate lure choices. The rest you can't do much about. If you can, let us know! Oh yeah: Bass, not only may lay low, or stay at a low energy state awaiting adequate hunting conditions, but they also sleep probably daily. I've found them sleeping so soundly I've poked them repeatedly with a rod tip, only to have them wriggle further into the weeds, Don't wake me fisherman. Can't you see I've got important business to attend to...zzzzzzz

Thinking is slow. Instincts are fast. The sun comes and goes pretty fast on any given fishing day. If you stay in the thinking mode you are likely to end up fishing your history. You may also find yourself looking to other's instincts to salvage the day.

Great thread, once again, Mr. T (Catt). Yes, every time I've looked at someone else's water I think, Wow! Look what they have. I feel like a kid with my nose against the glass of a candy store I can't just walk into! Then I think, How would I approach that water? And I realize, for the most part, I'd have to be there to do it any real justice: There are just so many possible variables. When asking a question or offering advice, esp on an internet site, it's easy to overlook just how different our angling situations can be. A bass is a bass is a reasonable description of the basic machine, at least as far as it exists in most waters today (ignoring unique genetic heritages). But the range of environments they exist in is enormous! Heck, one pond alone can keep me scratching my head. Add different latitudes, seasons, fertility, food chain permutations, structural characteristics, cover types, local angler habits, and conditions in and Wow! Not only Look at what they have!...but...What actually IS IT that they have?? Pretty cool world. The bass angler, even if confined within a short geographic range, confronts quite an intellectual challenge, and an opportunity for an education in defining how that basic machine, the bass, operates. Successful bass angler's, like Muddy (the Lord High Mayor of Mauch Chunk), have a right to be proud of their development. There are really only so many shortcuts. In that, I too want to thank all the members here who take the time to post about what they see and think and do on their home waters. It's invaluable. btw: VERY pretty water, Muddy. Makes me miss the East. Also looks a bit like a wind tunnel!

I can do the Photoshop work too. Great, just what I need -another hobby!

Sinbad, spectacular! Did you buy the blanks? Or carve them? What material do you print on for the photofinish? In short, I want to make some! If you are willing, or can find the time, to share, post in the appropriate page.

Thanks, Senile1. I remember reading people like the more subtle shimmy of Rogues more than the darting of X-Raps in colder water. I remember it being explained as more a better imitation of cold stressed shad, but might be worth a go in my bluegill waters. I have both actually: Husky's and some Rogues. I also have some very small chrome Husky's I've used in spring on bright days -the smaller size and diff action might do the trick.

Matt 825 Wrote: Interesting. Yeah, I've read about and heard from posters about winter bass doing this. Schooling prey like shad or alewife can get bass up and active. Sometimes it's cold-shocked and dying shad bringing on a strong bite in very cold water. I also know of anglers that fish topwaters on large lakes with alewife (or was it cisco?) in mid-winter, but these were smallies. This does go to show that bass (both, but esp smallmouth) can be aggressive in cold water. The more I hear from anglers fishing later and later into the year, the more overlooked opportunities there seem to be. My ponds, however, are bluegill based and I don't expect the bass have the opportunities to gorge like they might with schooled prey -beyond continued weedbed die-offs. They have to hunt those 'gills down one at a time an energy intensive activity that may not support really aggressive activity, but more passive opportunistic behavior. It's pretty well documented that bass and many other fish lose performance markedly when acclimated to cold water compared to warm. In fact, In-Fisherman shows some data along this line this month. Maybe that's what Sinbad, Buckeye, and I, are seeing (?). I'm not writing my ponds off, but catch rate has slowed, and did so last year at this time too, although I did have a day last year when I found a group tightly bunched behind a notably dense weed clump. I caught four there, and one leapt 4 times, almost clearing the water on 2 of those jumps I wrote in my journal. They can move if they are motivated. It's the motivation part I'm wondering about. Sinbad, what IS that bad dude in your avatar???

Don't throw in the towel yet. Seems the less I try, the fewer I catch!

George, in the last few days I've had two of my fish take near the surface, right after splashdown, on the suspender. After I just couldn't get some of those wakes to commit to the suspender, I did think of trying a #11 floating Rapala, but I didn't. This is a killer in spring, but I've not done well with it until surface water hits 55. But fall may be different. Yesterday it was a 'move on and find new fish'...or 'work the ones you have' sort of decision. Since this is looking like a pattern here, it would have been worth sticking it out a bit further. Got a pretty good cold front on me right now so it'll be a couple days until things are back to "normal" -minus about 3 or 4 degrees of water temp though I fear. It may have to wait until next year.

Great, and timely, post. You are describing my latest observations here in CO exactly. Really great that you are taking temps, btw. Yesterday, (with 49F to 51F water -a slide of a couple degrees due to a cold night) I had to work hard for just a couple LM. I drew chase wakes to my little (8cm) X-Rap in several locations, but only brought two to hand. Interestingly, I had wakes both to the lure and away as the bass could be spooked by too aggressive a jerk. In one spot the sun popped out and I spotted a bass follow and peck at my Rap. I followed up with a small jig-n-pork, then a grub. I got only a peck at the 1/16oz grub too! It seems that bass in cold water are more difficult to get to commit, maybe because they are feeding less. I know there's talk about bass fattening for winter but I think there's a limit. IMO (so far) fall binges have more to do with water falling through metabolically efficient temps coupled with more vulnerable preyfish. Now down at 50F (at the bass depth) I still find bass willing to chase, but I simply catch fewer that is, fewer seem willing to commit. My guess is (and that's what it is) that they are metabolically hindered. It seems 50F or so is at the cusp of some change, or that, with days so short and sun so low, heating just can't happen anymore: the winter slide has begun in earnest. Interestingly, this appears to be a greater issue with largemouths than with smallmouths. Several thoughts (sorry, no end all be all answers): -Sighted bass can be difficult. It's not because they are cruising, as most often this is normal hunting behavior. It tells you the bass are active and that's a very good sign. What's difficult is that you get to see that bass aren't always, even often, duped by our lures. They are most susceptible to being duped under reduced visibility conditions often when it's too dim or clarity low enough that we can't see em. Even then, a lot of bass just aren't fooled. When bass take a lure it's bc they made a mistake in identity (especially so for educated bass), or were excited by the proximity or action. -Has your pond changed? Has water clarity increased? It may be that the plankton in your pond has died off with dropping temps, and left the water like crystal. Hence, you are not only having trouble duping fish, but now seeing them not be duped! Also, has your vegetation died back some, leaving more open water? The swimming pool effect (little cover) makes it harder to dupe bass. I record visibility (depth I can see) along with temp. If anything it'll at least get you noticing something that can be important. -Have your bass seen that jerkbait very much lately? Try a change-up. In cold water, in my ponds, I use: hard jerks (various colors and sizes), Mepps Aglia #2 or 3, single-spin spinnerbaits w/CO blade and a teasy trailer, chatterbait, various jigs (grubs, marabou, or hair in 1/16 to 1/8oz) with or without a clip-on overhead jig spinner which allows you to slow the retrieve speed. -In any water temp mature bass know what they can catch and what is a waste of energy. In very cold water a bass' strike range is shortened, and the angle it passes the fish more important. I think that in really cold water a straighter retrieve is more apt to be perceived as catchable. Often, especially when temps get below 50, nil speed (what I call a VERY slow swim) retrieve works well. It's not that erratic movement won't work, in fact it can be the ticket (hence the teasy trailers), it just can't move away from the fish too quickly. And sometimes, too much movement puts em off, even spooks em as I saw yesterday. I haven't done it, but I would like to play with a float-n-fly set-up when we hit winter conditions (water in the mid 40s and below). I think, shaking a marabou jig beneath a float, might tempt of few bites from fish that won't chase a horizontal retrieve. My guess is this will still be slow going. -It is possible, theoretically, that those cruising bass are actually feeling their hormones and what we're seeing might actually be a prespawn type of cruising. I know it sounds sort of out there, but there are indications that bass may begin reproductive activity in fall they are certainly developing gonads then. Just something to keep tucked away in the back of your mind and could come in handy when your ego needs an excuse LOL. I think in general you have to accept fewer committed fish. Do experiment and let us know what you find. I'm doin' the same stuff here.

Sounds like two topics intertwined here... -What should be considered basic knowledge (nature, tackle). -Whether tournaments can make you a better angler. As to Ts, I think the opportunity to learn is certainly there, but the knowledge you bring with you will affect what you learn tremendously. Educators call this "transfer" -What you already have that will allow you to recognize something valuable when it appears. I like Thoreau's (or was it Emerson's) comment: "There is only as much beauty available to us in the visual ray as we are prepared to appreciate, and not a grain more." I know anglers who have learned by leaps and bounds by getting involved in clubs, but I see Catt's point: That the easy stuff, tackle and technique, is secondary to basic knowledge about how aquatic systems work. This is much more complicated, over the range of waters bass inhabit, and not all the information is in (at least in my lexicon LOL). It's much easier, and may be more fun for many, to talk tackle and technique. But as every angler gets pounded in, no one technique is THE ANSWER. Although it sure might seem like it on some days. Somebody mentioned mentors, and I agree wholeheartedly. I assume mentoring can occur in T situations, but a really good mentor tends to special kind of person. Not everyone is so giving.

Is there no stone left unturned! ;D

Adjust your expectations accordingly...and win.

I guess first, you sound psyched out. Dump that. It probably is turnover, but it could also be an algae die-off. If it is turnover, remember others are going to have the same problems. Fewer fish should be weighed. Will be interesting just how that comes out. Let us know. One thing you can do, if the lake topography will support it, is find away from the main body coves that didn't turnover. If there is another basin you may be in luck. Smaller shallower areas likely hold fish, even if they are younger and smaller, at least you can work on a limit. Let us know how in the tournament went.

Nice report.

Some of the very best ponds I've fished, in terms of large bass, had pike in them (or pickeral -although the end results are a little different). These fish spawn early, growing to the right size to eat fry of later spawning species -like bass and bluegills. They can be pretty effective at this, keeping 'gills and small bass in check -which leaves lots of room for remaining bass to grow. There is a small lake/large pond here in CO that regularly gives up bass over 5lbs, with many over 7. It has given up 9s and a 13-1/2 too! This is so outlandishly different from nearby waters that I wrote the biologist in charge. I wasn't surprised at his answer: ...In my opinion, the lake grows such large bass because of lack of competition. The northern pike probably eat so many young bass that the ones that do escape and grow to an adult size don't have many other bass to compete with. The sampling data seems to support this, since we've seen very few intermediate size bass, just young-of-the-year fish and larger adults. ... Oh yes, this water is very heavily restricted to barbless hook C&R angling only during certain hours and only so many in at a time. It was not open to angling at all this year. So, it is heavily managed from both ends of the age class spectrum -young bass by pike and old bass by angling limits. aceman wrote: That's been my expereince too, in waters with Esocids. Interestingly, I'd always noticed that in pike/bass ponds much of the time I didn't see fin nor scale of a pike, then on some days I'd raise every darn pike in the place. On those days I avoided using anything with flash. I believe pike are very attuned to weather and when they have the best opportunities to hunt successfully. I believe this for bass too, but they seem more capable in a variety of conditions than mature pike.

Catt wrote: This is a great thread. Interestingly, KVD won AOY (I believe) in his rookie year. He won or placed high in tournaments on lakes he'd never fished before at 23 years of age. How'd he do that? (Hint: He comes from a serious angling family, and he's a sharp decision maker). I assume (having never fished a T) that tournament fishing can make an good angler better, through exposure to diff waters and anglers. But, in and of itself, Ts won't likely make the angler.

If it's shad you can sometimes see them near the surface- especially threadfins. Otherwise, it's by sonar. Bluegills, in the waters I fish, tend to be where ever there is adequate cover. You just look for good habitat. Yellow perch? Sonar. Although, in one large pond I fish with good perch numbers, the perch will chase up lures. And this particular spot happens to produce a lot of (probably perch eating) bass. If you Google diff prey fishes by name you can start your own research on the ones in your waters. Also, do some searches, both in the articles section, and the threads in this site about fall fishing in general. There's lots out there, but be aware that some of you read might not pertain to fisheries like yours -shad-based, bluegill based, natural lakes, reservoirs. Then you have to get to know your own waters with time on the water. There can never be too much of that.

Sure looks like a deer humerus to me now!

Those are some really funny responses. ;D ;D ;D I'll try to be serious though... It's too short to be a deer. It looks like a bone from a short-legged dog breed to me. It does look old, but I'm not a good judge, especially by photo. Native people did have domestic dogs. Maybe it's not that old though. You could email the photos to an archeologist at a nearby university, someone who works on sites in your region. I've done that before.

Muddy, How did you know???