Paul Roberts

Fascinating. If 3 feet is really the limit of vertical movement down in shallow water -that is very interesting. I'm trying to think if I've seen such a movement. I know I've seen bass lying fairly close to the surface, that will drop out of sight, but I've noted that many simply move off and away from me, just under the surface. Also, when spawning bass chase each other, they do so at a very shallow depth, often well out into the pond, creating a wake. Ralph noted this same thing in his pond observations. Anyone seen bass drop deeper?

Senko77 Wrote: This would be my guess too. However it is very possible these are the same fish. Likely the fish you caught "on bottom" swam down to intercept your jig. If the bass needed to use the water column over short a period of time they could do it by accommodating to the mid range depth, and move up or down to feed (but not hold for any duration). Just a thought.

Yeah, I hear you Muddy. We do have to be careful what we are willing to believe. A lot of scientific research out there isn't directly applicable to our angling. Good science progresses at a snail's pace, and most of it has nothing to with angling per se. On the other hand, anglers can be way too quick to jump to conclusions. Seems we somehow NEED conclusions -not just in angling. It can be hard to just say I dunno, and be happy with it. Strike Windows were introduced by Ralph Manns in IF 20 years ago. It's an interesting way of looking at how bass respond to prey, and it's backed by a pretty deep understanding of bass. Ralph is a good scientist and angler. He's pretty cautious about putting stuff out there that isn't well backed, and when he is speculating, he's upfront about it.

Muddy, read "Ambush is the Wrong Word" by Ralph Manns in the biology articles section.

You're describing the "zone of awareness" (Rich Zaleski). A bass hears or sees something and turns to it. If the lure is slow enough (a falling Senko) the bass may be able to move into range to take it. If it is too fast for the bass given activity level, the bass won't bother. It's a matter of energy conservation. That "range" is the "strike window" (Ralph Manns), and it moves around with the fish and varies in size with the bass' activity level. That's for sure!

I catch my first bass of the year in late Feb. That's not all that far away!

Interesting thought. If this was the case, and if bass are coming from deep water, it likely does enter in, it would seem that all the other factors mentioned would be moot, until depth accommodation was realized.

Go to the Fishing Tackle section. I just brought up a post from this summer featuring my recommendation on a compact fishing camera.

Thought the best way to respond to your post was to bring this one back up.

That was always my pet peeve too. I hated the phrase, "depends on conditions..." WHAT CONDITIONS AND WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT IT! I would stammer. I vowed that when I write I wouldn't leave a reader high and dry.

17 below here a few days ago ago. 10 now.

For me, In-Fisherman, hands down. I do like BM and find some useful stuff in there (can never read too much) but IF is the only one I've ever subscribed too. Take that back, I used to subscribe to Fishing Facts -back in the 70s. I've never seen FLW -Colorado isn't known as a prime bass market.

Great thread! Great input by Muddy, paul, and fourbizz. From what I understand (seen and read) of this topic, all your ideas are sound. Here's some stuff I can add that might help: I believe bass do school, when they are young; from fry up to (in my waters) about 10 inches. In my ponds, larger size range schoolies can be seen traveling in tight groups of up to 30 fish or so. But bass are not well suited to this kind of feeding. Unless there is a ton of concentrated prey, groups break up and do better hunting individually and/or in loosely coordinated groups. It's as though they still can work together but it doesn't pay off well enough to support large groups. What's left are often called aggregations, simply because good numbers of bass are often found collected in good habitat areas. But there seems to be more to it than bass simply aggregated in the same areas because bass do hunt together, using each other to gain advantage on prey. Bass are primarily stalker/flushers, which many anglers mistakenly call ambushing. True ambushing is something different a lie in wait strategy that usually involves a sedentary lifestyle and extreme camouflage. Bass, esp LM, may ambush to some degree, but it is not a primary tactic. Most bass actively hunt by cruising and flushing, using structural characteristics (cover, substrate, and surface) AND EACH OTHER to gain advantage on difficult prey (All healthy prey is difficult most of the time). In waters with large numbers of shad (lots of concentrated food) it appears that bass can continue to hunt successfully in schools. From what I gather this seems more likely in southern waters with threadfin shad as these shad are small enough as adults not to grow beyond the gape limits of most bass. But gizzard shad (more common in the north) grow fast and get too big in their first growth year for most northern bass to continue eating. Bass leave these shad schools by mid to late summer. This summer break-up may also be furthered in many waters by the increase in cover (weeds) allowing bass to more effectively employ the tactical flushing they are primarily adapted to. One of the problems bass have against open water prey species is that they (the bass) are too slow and do not have the stamina for effective open water pursuit feeding. This can be likened to hunting in raptors, where open country birds like doves are too fast for all but the falcons, while accipiters (gos, Coopers, sharp-shins) are short range structure/cover specialists, keying on passerines. This speed issue may be especially true for larger bass. Some bioenergetic models have predicted that larger fish are faster than smaller because of increased muscle mass, but this is not believed to play out with bass because healthy bass get so much bulkier as they get larger, which slows them down. Some lab studies have shown that body lengths per sec does decrease as bass get larger. In the wild, larger bass may simply get better at being bass becoming better, more circumspect, tacticians. The alternative is starvation. Does this mean that larger bass cannot feed on open water prey? No! Are there times and places where larger bass might key on open water prey? Yes! But, as fourbizz describes, they are more apt to do so around appropriate structure/cover. (However, I have read CA and TX anglers describing huge bass as bullies with complete dominance over prey. I find this hard to believe for a number of reasons, but, I have no experience here, so it's an asterisk in my lexicon.) Here's a GREAT post about mixed school feeding frenzies. Russ shows a lot of knowledge about the differences between predator feeding strategies and does a great job describing his observations: From Russ Comeau: 11/14/2008 3:52:01 PM I have far more time and experience in saltwater with striped bass than with largemouth or smallmouth. But fresh or salt, mixed catches of gamefish don't mean mixed schools. I haven't really known gamefish schools to mix freely. True, in the story above, we caught a mixed bag, often a striper, largemouth or smallmouth in succession, but the species were not mixed into a homogeneous multi-species school of gamefish. They all just happened to be going after the same prey in the same area. Yes, the largies and smallies were taking advantage of the stripers hard efforts in corralling bait, but were not mixing into a multi-species gamefish school. Often the largemouth and smallmouth bass will uncannily anticipate where the stripers will push bait, and will line up and be waiting on strategic spots on structure or in cover for that striper bait push to happen - even before the stripers start to get active. It's like waiting for a parade to come down the street. The bass somehow anticipate the striper push will come their way, and it usually does! Also, bass will become active below, on the perimeters of or immediately before or after the stripers push through. Now keep in mind, the stripers may make multiple pushes or charges, time and again, first one direction, then the other, and the largemouth and smallmouth bass let the stripers do all the hard work. If no stripers were present? The bass would have to make the hard effort themselves, and sometimes do. But they prefer to let the stripers do that. Actually, the stripers are better at it than bass - so if stripers are on the scene, the bass just can't compete in that situation. The bass will wait with anticipation on structure or cover for the stripers to push bait at them during the height of the striper activity. And the bass will come out of structure/cover to do their thing on the outskirts of, under, just before or after the stripers push through. I am not so sure that one gamefish species risks or fears being eaten by the other gamefish species at these times. The bass sticking to structure or cover have a strategic feeding advantage there that stripers do not. Even in the ocean where schools of oceanic gamefish, say stripers, bluefish and weakfish (northern sea trout) are all hitting the same bait school, they stay apart from each other. This is just so they can do their own thing efficiently. Sometimes a surface-feeding blitz or underwater feeding frenzy witnessed on the electronics may seem like a mixed, multi-species free-for-all to us the anglers, and you can catch stripers, largemouth, smallmouth, walleye or whatever on successive casts - but if you could really see what is going on. you would probably realize the gamefish are somewhat stratified into free-wheeling vanguards or cadres, moving with a group mainly of their own species. They will even stratify by size simply because it is easier for medium or larger sizes of gamefish to maneuver on prey schools with cohorts of their own size. True, the smaller size vanguards do get bullied and squeezed into the marginal feeding area whereas the bigger size vanguards take the prime positions on the field (same as school kids lining up to get ice cream cones, left unsupervised, the bigger kids are going to naturally command the head of the ice cream line. Ditto with gamefish lining up to feed. Overall, getting back to Powell, the stripers are best suited for open water. They were the last species introduced (relative to smallies and largies), and they have taken over the open water domain simply because they are more efficient there. On Powell, the smallies (introduced years after the largies) have taken over deep clear water structure. Simply, they are the best of the three species (stripers, largies, smallies) in mastering that domain. The largies, which were there before smallies or stripers, still maintain the shallow cover domain as their stronghold. They are the best at that. Also, largemouth are strong in some deepwater situations, mainly cracks, cuts, crevices or other indentations in canyon walls in deep water. Also, deep wood of any kind. In such niches, largemouth can perform as good or better than smallies. But on points, rock slides, sheer bluffs, deep ledges, humps for example, smallies tend to perform better, and largemouth tend not to compete too much in those domains if smallies are present. If only largies were in Powell (as in the beginning) they would have the run of and occupy all domains - shallow cover, deep structure, open water. But the smallies beat them out on the deep structure, so it has become rare to get largemouth deep once smallies took advantage of much of the deep structure. A good comparison is a similar impoundment and you could say neighboring Lake Mead. There, smallies have not taken on a strong hold yet. So on Lake Mead, yes, the largies are caught on deep structure there, simply because the largies can be efficient on deep structure, but not when smallies are present. Likewise, if stripers were never introduced to Powell, it is likely the large and smallmouth would pursue open water bait, but with the stripers, it is simply a lesson in futility and eventually, starvation for smallmouth or largemouth bass to try to compete against stripers in the open water on Lake Powell. Stripers are better at it. So, it is not that bass fear stripers in open water, and it is not that largemouth fear smallmouth on deep structure. It is just one species can outperform the others in that species ideal domain, be it largies in shallow cover, smallies on deep structure or stripers in open water. Any one of these species would be free to use all three kinds of lake areas - until one of the better-suited species are introduced and outperform the others in the survival game in one of those niches. Now, realize that while, say, LM might potentially be relatively efficient in open or deep water, this varies not only with competition with other species, but also very much within the LM themselves dependent on size class of both bass and prey, and availability and configuration of structure and cover -as I tried to describe above. It's tough out there, for fish, MUCH tougher than most anglers realize. There are very real limitations out there, in fact, they define the forms and functions of fish species. One things for sure, those bass that get big (or even mature) are doing some things right.

That's key right there, or half of it. The other half is conditions: sky, water, and sometimes other things like angling pressure. Not sure what's confrontational here. Am I being / appearing confrontational?? Enough that anyone feels they have to choose sides and cheer someone on?

RW Wrote: I've seen ponds that would fit both extremes: Some are limited in habitat, others have good fish well distributed. I've also discovered some areas in ponds I never caught fish from, until I changed how I approached em. Sometimes our GoTo methods are only appropriate in certain areas. In fact, I still may sometimes just tie on a GoTo and look for water and conditions that will support it. In fact, that was how I used to start a day. I knew certain lures fished well in a certain water and hit the water pre-tied -only to find I had to change, often throughout the day. I am now more apt to pre-tie to conditions. Catt Wrote: Agreed, location and conditions make up the largest chunk of the dilemma. Brand and color are rarely part of the formula. Here I'll quote Brian Waldman (T9) paraphrasing Al Lindner (LOL): My favorite analogy that I've read on this subject was a quote from Al Lindner that paraphrased went something like, "Lure selection, and subsequently fish catching success, is like a giant tree. Most people put too much attention to dangling out on the branches when they should be focused on climbing the trunk." Location is the trunk, you can't catch them unless you find them. Depth and Speed are the two main branches of the tree. Putting the red hook on the front of your crankbait and having green flecks in your red shad worm is hanging way off the ends of the branches. Yes, it can be important when you finally reach a point of that much fine tuning, but for most people most of the time, they should stick with worrying about the critical basics. If you can master those variables, you'll be way ahead of most of the people, most of the time. That said, versatility matters. It's often touted as one of KVDs greatest assets. For most anglers a few GoTos are all there are to choose from. It takes time to develop versatility. Dabbling in it can cost you GoTo fish, but the future payoff can be big. Versatility doesn't have to be confusing, but can be. You decide where to draw the line. What's KISS to KVD would be a nightmare to others.

Suddenly doesn't look so simple anymore! Simple would be if every one of those T's were won with the same lure, even the same 4 lures. Instead, each one represents a diff scenario: depth, clarity, cover, activity level, water body, pressure, ... Could each of those T's been won with the same lure? Doubtful. Maybe a better question would be: What if each angler was allowed only 4 lure configurations. Would the outcome be the same (weight to place, not angler)? What if you are fishing a small water body, and there is only one flat or point in the whole place? What water do you eliminate? Instead, you fish what you have, and the conditions presented you. What if your goto bait isn't working? Go home? If you really want a limit of bass, how many lure configurations would you want with you, say, in early spring, in late spring, in early summer, in mid November, under brilliant blue skies, under deep overcast, muddy water, clear water, weeds, wood, open gravel, bluegills, perch, shad, YOY bass, darters, crayfish... ? KISS, if you wish, but it won't always keep you on the fish.

Wow! Great pics on that site. I want to meet Gong Lei! Obviously he travels about -that salmon like beast is a Taimen, from Mongolia, or something closely related. The others I do not know but I would guess they are warm water fish from the south. I love that silvery walleye/bass sort of thing. I want to catch some of those!

I'm old enough now to have seen the majority of my natural traipsing grounds lost to urbanization, either by access or downright destruction. The trouble with free-reign free market thinking is the assumption that somehow markets are organic, (something of nature) rather than contrived. Unfortunately, the understanding and value of natural processes just aren't a part of the vast majority of development I've seen rolling across this country and other parts of the globe I've been. That is not apt to be true in the vast majority of cases.

Yeah, maybe strawberries were crappie. I just called 'em rock bass and crappie LOL. No. wait...crappie were called calico's! And white bass were called silver bass and white perch were called silver perch. I once caught a bowfin (Port Bay) and an very old man saw it and exclaimed "Cauhoi! Cauhoi!" (pronounced Coh-hoy), which turned out to be a cajun term! A short time later a boat went by and asked what I had (I was on shore) and I replied, "Cow-Hoy". The guy turned to his buddy and said, "That kid's got a Coho!"

Check out the search feature for last years posts on spring fishing. Timely topics get re-visited eqach year. There are a LOT of good threads to keep you busy for a while, and up to snuff on coming spring discussions.

Welcome to the board. This is a great question to check out the search feature on. Lots of previous discussion. Also, Google "lake turnover" for a basic definition.

This is an interesting idea, Muddy. It's really neat to be on top of a specific fishery. Keep us posted.

This switch in bite...Is it a summer thing? Or all season?

I gotta ask: Were those 14 inchers in the same locations as the 16's? Or were they generally shallower? Worms, and jigs and cranks, can be very diff presentations. I'd be careful comparing them, in terms of responses from different sized bass, esp in different locations, and over diff days/hours/conditions. Was it only Trickworms, while other similar sized worms caught them? Might you have lost confidence in the worms after a couple poor showings, and not re-visited them in earnest? I know you recently began jig fishing -maybe cranks too? Did these replace some of your worm effort time? We only have so much time on the water, and conditions, and bass activity, change. Just some thoughts. BTW: Bass can learn, so I think your idea is plausible. Just a tough one to get at. And I'd be careful somewhat about messing with your confidence in a good tool.

FBL wrote: That is just a really great, and concise, synopsis. As to bluegill-based (or other) waters, I can only go on what other anglers have brought to the table, especially ice fishers. They continue to catch bass. It seems that bass and (at least mature) 'gills (and perch) winter in similar areas. Like any other time of year location and presentation are key. It's not unlikely that some waters and years may be tougher than others. I haven't ground-truthed this in my own waters to know.