FIN-S-R

Yo-Zuri Vibe!!! I was a half hearted rattle trapper till I found the vibe, and now I never hit the water w/ out 1, Especially fall. They run real nose down, and come out of the package with really good sharp hooks. They cost a little more, but are worth every dime!!!

In winter the general catching pattern is good bite really really early then good bite around noon. I figure this is due to the fact that most folks are bank beaters, and this is the time of day when fish relate to the water closer to the bank. Early bite is due to low light and better ambush conditions, and the later bite is probably a result of warmer temps in shallower water on north banks. Ex. jan 2006 air temp 25-45 h2o temp 42-45. early bite was deep on vertical south banks due to a north wind and presence of bait. Midday bite was shallow on north banks due to h2o temp being 3-4 degrees warmer than elsewhere on the lake, and thats where the bait migrated to. Just my theory.

Not surprised to hear you have trouble catching better fish in eufaula, I get my A## pretty much handed to me in the big fish dept on that lake everytime. I have heard...not seen but heard, weightless senkos around the dam pockets for smallies as well as drop shots. I know ther are alot of blue flec and june bug users as far as some of the guys who win the triton and skeeter money up there. I hear DD22's and weightless senkos in the standing timber in front of bell star holds good smallies, as well as largemouth. The only place I have ever actually caught good fish consistently on eufaula is around bell star boat docks on plum and blue flec p-worms. Some guys fishing post spawn stuff this year won on 10" blue flec c-rigged and t-rigged, they weighed in all 3+ LMB. Eufaula is tricky, it seems like there is alot of "dead" water in that lake compared to the other okie lakes I fish. I hear the rip-rap up by fountainhead at the 150 bridge holds good lmb relating to the channel, but those fish have never showed up for me. Also from hwy9 bridge longtown area south is supposed to be good for big largemouth, but Ive only seen a few come from this area. Bottum line, eufaula is a brushpile lake for LMB in a big way. The spots and smallies seem to be much more transient in eufaula than in other lakes. If you do the research you will find that grand and texoma have consistantly higher weights for the same phases in tourney results. I take this to mean that eufaula is just TOUGH unless you get on the RIGHT fish...I really never have. I have also heard alot of buzz about terminator spinner baits on eufaula, but I take this info w/ a grain of salt cause the guys reporting good catches on terminator spinnerbaits are...you guessed it...sponsered by terminator spinnerbaits. GOOD LUCK

I really want to like BASS and want to believe they are doing good things for the bass fishing community, but i'm afraid its going down hill. I speak to two BASS pros from time to time, and the general attitude I get from them is uncertainty. ESPN is seemingly trying to push this thing in the direction of more convention sports, but the logistics to consider largely dont allow for it. I mean come on, I sorry but I only attend weigh-ins where I am weighing in or as a supporter for a couple of close freinds that fish the strens. Most folks arent going to drive great distances to watch a weigh-in, and they sure arent going to pay for entry like they would for a nascar race or football game. Another thing is Bassmasters mag., its getting to be pretty low-end as far as containing really good info. Why not get "A day on the lake with...." in every issue, or more on the water help articles as opposed to the "inventing the next great lure" article, and the wasted space columns like "destinations". Out of 110 pages this issue about half are full page ads, I know something has got to pay the bills, but the in-fisherman this month has 72 pages and and probably 50 of them are full of useful info. Its kind of disenchanting to realize the reality that mabe the only way for this sport to remain media relevant is to go the FLW direction.

This is kind of an offshoot from the max depth post, but that one got me thinkin'. Im gonna be doing some fishin' on a lake here in a month or so that lives and dies by the ledge pattern. I generally throw a DD22/Hot lips/Timber Tiger/Big-Ol' Spinner bait/Finnesse Stuff/ and Jigs on ledges. What do you guys throw and how do you fish 'em. Anybody Use swimbaits on ledges for really big fish?

I stumbled into the world of deep water fishin a couple years ago and now I can hardly make myself fish anything shallower than 15-20 ft...Sight fishin' w/ your electronics is like a video game. Like someone else said, those deep fish dont get the constant barrage the shallow fish do, and they seem to relate more to food and structure, and less to cover. They also dont seem to be affected as much by boat traffic or weather changes. I am a drop shottin' addict in a big way. I generally have 3-5 drop shot rigs hooked up at all times...different configs on each. I throw lots of robos/flw finnesse worms (manns makes em now)/zoom finnesse worms/kinami cut tails/yum dingers/senkos/tiki drops/ and sometimes big stuff like a fluke or 7in dinger or a brushhog. Spot removers/ jewel spider jigs/ c-rigged everthing..even little c-rigged cranks all suit me in depths up to 80ft. I have caught a few fish down in the 80-100 ft range, but they died on the way up so I dont generally mess with any water deeper than that. I found that I catch many more quality fish, and "trophy" size fish pretty regularly...smallies and largemouth. Seems the largemouth deep bite dies down here in OK in fall, but pretty much all the rest of the year you can sack em' up (of course Im excluding spawn in that last statement). I have read alot about thermocline affecting the depth at which fish will hold and have seen it a few times, but I have some doubts about that really dictating the depth zone at which they will hold...I notice it has a pronounced affect on the depth of the baitfish. I have had many experiences where the "dead" water started at about 15-25 ft and deeper, and caught all my good fish at depths of 35-45+. Could these fish be moving in and out of the O2 depleted water, or do they just stay down. I have also caught many fish at depths of up to 50ft , and had no problem with them equalizing swim bladder pressure. Anybody else notice this kind of stuff or have an explanation.

3/4 or 1oz w/ big colorado, indiana, or oklahoma blades for slow rolling in winter

I try to set my drag such that when a fish makes a run he can have some line, but otherwise I want him headed my direction. I try to make sure my rod can act as a good enough shock absorber to handle the head shakes and constant pull variation (gotta match your equipment to the situation). With real light spinnin' tackle I generally go more to the light drag school of thought, like someone said better to lose a little line during the fight than to lose the fish.

Had my deer cam stolen last week. I just dont get it. I had another cam set up to keep an eye on my feeder cam and stand. Got him on the 2nd cam, posted his pics in all the local gas stations stealing. I hate thieves

Mr. Worm: Check out your PMs.

Ive caught more than one bass with a ripped out gill, they usually arent real healthy, but they can make it. When you get a bleeder, put it back in the water and do the revive drill on it as quick as possible. It works best if the water is kinda muddy, it'll clot in just a couple of seconds. Gut hooking...give em' the hook, they'll live, think about what a crawdad can do to their insides, they can take quite alot. I think the most important thing to do is to disturb as little of the slim coat as possible. Once the protection of the slime coat is gone a fish will check out quick. As for eyeball poppin' probably hurts, but like everyelse has said they'll be just fine w/ 1 eye.

woops!! sorry bout the racy stuff.

Caught a male 4 times off the same bed...he kept hitting before the momma sow had a chance. He was a keeper so i threw him in the livewell and gave the bed a moment or two to settle down. When I came back the big female was hanging closer to the bed and without the male there to give me fits, I eventually coaxed her into hitting a swim bait. Afterwards, turned the male loose and he went right back to his perch guarding the eggs. I have had to throw everything but the kitchen sink at bedders to get a response, and Ive had em hit on the first try, you just never know. I ussually start out with a senko/tiki stick type of bait, then go to t-riged craw/hula grub stuff or jig-n-trailer. If those dont work, ill let a horny toad sink down on the bed. Ive also used swim baits/ drop shots/ and small floating cranks weighted with a 3-5 oz lead dropped right by the bed. This way, you can make the crank dive down to the bed like its trying to eat the eggs, then float back up like its backing away from the bass, then repeat. As for the ethics involved, I say catch the females and leave the males to guard. The females dont have much input after they lay the eggs anyway, and you generally dont deep hook fish during the spawn.

Surprised to see this thing is still getting hits..... earthworm77: I would like to hear your ideas and I hope this is not too left field for you. Took the "project" out this weekend for another field test...It worked pretty well (2nd place out of 35-40 boats). Im getting an idea of how this thing will be helpful and how much help it can be to me. It took me about 5min to catch my first fish in practicing with it the day before the tourney, and I managed to catch what would have been a 10lb limit (10lbs always get a check on this a lake) on a day when even the local "experts" called it tough. The weather pattern shifted dramatically overnight, and I adjusted according to the info in my guide. Tournamanet day it took about 1hr to get a limit on a day that saw few of any quality. The guidance this thing imparted was not exactly specific to the best color and or presentation, but it got the reaction response correct, and the area correct. I caught all my non-cull keeper fish on a 100yd stretch of a flat. It was 1 of 2 places on the lake that fit the "optimum position" description from the guide. The other "optimum position" was employed by the winners of the tourney for their limit. For a couple hours during practice and for about 30 min of the tourney I went to some "real good spots" that did not fit with the guide recomendations, and had no luck. The guide was no help in nailing down the particulars of the optimum color pattern, this was something I had to experiment around with and it was actually my partner who had the correct idea about color from the very beginning. So it does have some limitations. It was though very useful in finding the concentration and quality of fish needed to take a check home. I reflection, i am realizing that there is really nothing new under the sun or the water, but constructing a tool that allows for quick accurate organization of the most influential variables in a system to make a descision might be novel. I believe this guide will after a few more years of scrutinization become a very valuable tool in quickly locating and patterning catchable fish.

Chris: I agree that a chart as a stand alone "lure selector" isnt very helpful, and cant be very accurate. The list of lures or techniques i posted here was simply a vehicle to draw criticism toward an element in a project that does exactly what you described. The lures are just arbitrary place holders that signify levels of reaction or finnesse "we" as anglers are familiar with and commonly use, so you can insert or delete as you feel necessary. This reaction gradient is the elemnt of the project that sort of ties in a number of less tangible aspects of the study with practical usable "put your hands on it" references. I initially wanted to hear different opinions on the ranking of those lure and technique constituants in order to get rid of my own bias (I like to fish jigs/drop shots/vibration baits). I didnt want my own opinions to keep me from looking at the rankings in an honest manner. The system I have described works like this: 1. Make your best guess at the dominant seasonal pattern 2. Use a reference Ive come up with to select a group of most likely productive areas in relation to the seasonal pattern (usually the areas end up being adjacent to one another so you can transition quickly if needed, and they overlap with adjacent seasonal patterns so if your off a pattern, youll still have a good chance at picking up on the dominant pattern) 3. Evaluate the Locations Based on the Variables I posted, as High or low probability for holding catchable fish 4. Evaluate the Probable Agression level of the fish (I have a reference table for this too- Its based on Variables in previous posts) 5. Evaluate the probable Relation to cover (Reference Table) 6. Select a group of techniques that relate to the most likely reaction level of the fish and are applicable for the situation (There is a High and Low reaction group available for each situation) This sounds kinda long and drawn out, but I have it arranged such that some of the steps are worked through simultaneously. It takes me a little over 1 min to come up with a conclusion (after collecting the necessary info) So far I havent really come up with anything "new", but when you put all the info "we" as anglers have access to in a sigle location and then organize it according to known or accepted or observed trends and rules, it really clarifys what strategy should be the most productive in a certain area at a certain time. if your like me, I kinda get stuck on 1 thing that worked last weekend, or this time last year, or a spot that produced real good on a day like this..... The system I have come up with helps to open up possibilities with high probability for productiveness.

Oh yeah, and someone commented on wether or not this thing is helping me catch fish. The answer is absolutely..if nothing else it helps to organize my thoughts and define a distinct direction to go in rather than random bank beating

GAMEOVER: Your exactly correct in stating the only rule is consistant exception, but examine those exceptions and see how they distribute around a mean, and you all of the sudden have created a trend analysis. As I have stated in this thread, I am attempting to characterize the mean and formulate strategies to work within the variences about that mean. As for taking the fun out of fishing...for some this may, but Im a nerd and this kinda stuff is fascinating to me. cart7: I dont believe the color selector science was real sound...not to say the lab methods werent good and the suggestions arent valid, but color is so subjective...its one of the variables I am not about to try and factor in. I have found that in bio studies empirical data is better than lab data for application minded outcomes. With color you just need to know 2 things, #1 bass see the world through a sort of yellowish greenish tint, and #2 the deeper you go, fewer colors are visible with blueish colors being the most visible at depth. thats why greens work so well (yellow and blue make green). And come on you HAVE to use a little common sense about fishing considering seasonal habits and lure color choices. I am attempting to quantify the most influencial variables in a system and formulate a strategy to approach that system, not create another color selector...im not arrogant enough to think I can PREDICT anything, I just think a human brain is capable of figuring out a range of possibilities, and then narrowing those possibilities to a manageable set. And your right about the many years, I dont plan to stop fishing anytime soon!!! roadwarrior: You have illustrated my point perfectly, so let me ask you this...where do they live, what do they want to eat, or do you have to tick em' off. Questions you face everytime you hit the h2o. I want to make a shortcut through this thought process. BD: Here are the key variables Im considering- I am making three Assumptions #1 You can figure out the dominant seasonal phase, #2 You are familar with the local forage #3 You have a target species **in order of importance For General location: Predominant Seasonal Pattern (Hours Positive Radiant Energy or H2O temp-one of these two ALWAYS dictates because fish dont have calendars) Water Trend (up or down) Wind Direction Water Level Water Chemistry (pH, DO, Turbidity, Salinity....Whatever is most important) For Typical Agression: Predominant Seasonal Pattern (ex. immidiate post spawn sucks) Presence of wind or current in presence of forage (one of the two will generally overide the other) Relative barometric pressure trend (Lower in warm weather=Bite/ Higher in cold weather=Bite from sun warming) Light Level (fish dont have eyelids) For Relation to Cover: Availability in presence of forage Light Level **Moon Phase ENHANCES behavior- Does not dictate **Thermocline adjusts positioning about a structure feature-Does not dictate The only hard and fast exception that I have found to be a rule is if a storm is severe enough (barometric pressure drop that should cause increased bite doesnt) it will cause fish only to bite either extreme finnesse or extreme reaction- Usually both work at the same time RoLo: Im doing a hybrid ordination statistical method I picked up while working as an ecologist for the dreaded EPA Thanks to everyone for the input and criticism...Keep it coming

My thoughts on "spooky fish": You have to start out with the "joe six pack" bass in mind, and then adjust. Tex is a pretty good place to find the "joe six pack" or "jane wal-mart" bass. Not overly spooky and not overly agressive. Slightly cautious, but ready to eat. Now on murray I have found that the majority fo the 14"+ fish I am after are somewhat more attuned to the finnesse end of the reaction gradation included in previous posts. But I have also found that with a long enough cast or sustained boat traffic like summertime, even the spookiest of the murray fish will smash an LVR or vibe and even a buzz on a calm clear day. This again relates back to some statements I made about considering only those variables with overwhelming influence on a system. At a point pressure becomes less of a factor based on instinct conditioning. Now if those fish could think...they'd be outta there quicker than you could say scat. In this respect conditioning is detrimental and goes against logical thought. Ex. I have learned not to leave my purple gulp worms dragging along in the water (they dry out real fast) on murray during the summer. When boat traffic reaches its highest point sometime in july those main lake fish will literally come up and hang them selves taking a swipe at anything with a purplish or whitish color to it you leave hanging over the side of the boat...and big 'uns too..I lost a rod last summer to this. ive also put a couple of keepers in the boat this way..purely by accident and i didnt win anything because of it. So back to your comment...You have to adjust to meet your specific conditions, but that doesnt mean you have to go out in left field to do it.

BD: I worded the title that way on purpose to mabe draw a little MORE criticisim and spur that natural urge to "set this guy straight". I really dont want to come across arrogant, but i do understand the human response to this kinda of stuff and lets just say means to an end. The two lakes to which i refer are murray and texoma. I live smack dab btw the two, i mean literally almost equi-distant from each (11 min in h2o at murray/ 15min in h20 at Tex.) if youve fished these two very much youll know that they fish really different. Murray is a medium to smallish clear lake with lots of grass pond weed and big pads, and has a sandstone watershed for the most part and is really getting dominated by smallies. But dont think there arent some freagin' huge largemouth in that pond...ive seen em' during spawn. 1 in particular for 3 yrs in a row bedded under the same stump. Shes easily double digits but im not gonna try and lie about how much i think she weighs....I just know shes bigger than any bass Ive ever seen "on the hoof". Got her to bite once in three years...she snapped 25lb vanish fc like it was spider silk...man oh man...maybe next april. I view murray as more of an overpressured trophy lake, but i will get plenty of arguments from the bank beaters on that one. Anyway, texoma as you may know isnt well known for big largemouth, but it has a really healthy population of large/small/spots and doesnt exhibit the same overpressured symtoms as does murray. Some state record smallies have come from tex and i figure more will in the future (I had a couple of monsters this summer). It has a cheifly limestone local watershed with the washita and red bringing in mixed minerology from as far west and north as the texas panhandle. It doesnt have much in the way of vegitation, but the little pads are beginning to come on pretty strong. It can range from pretty clear to choco. milk.- Alot like keystone Neither of these lakes are extreme cases in composition, rather they are averages of the two extremes. Id like to hear your thoughts and input And as for the 100% comment- your right nothing is ever 100% in nature, but what I intend to do is deliniate a mean (average) and figure out how to work both sides within the statistical deviation.

RoLo: i hear what your saying and believe me i do not intend on formulating a stand alone "lure selector". If you notice in some of my posts I have referred to a project that this table is a part of. The "reaction gradation table" is simply a range of stimuli producers at different levels we as anglers commonly associate with fishing. Essentially the lures or techniques in the table are specific names that refer to a specific level of stimulous. Rather than assigning arbitrary number scores to the different levels of stimulli, I have associated them with easily recognizable and ubiquitous refereneces to fishin' stuff. I also agree with the seat of the pants comment and this is not at all a seat of the pants type of endevour. Heres the short version of this project's history. The first 23-24yrs of my life- getting addicted to the outdoors and making many general observations. Next 6 mos.- planning strategies and experiment design and defining parameters. 1 year- trial and error on data collection techniques and data organization. 6mos- trial runs w/ data collection and management strategies. 6mos- refining collected data and salvaging usable information from failed collection attempts. 1.5 yr- collecting data for specific parameters, and implementing into analyzation techniques. Now here I am today... Im still tweeking and re-re-organizing and splitting and lumping to adjust curves in the trend analyses I have going. I am finding that a few simple data anylization techniques are much more accurate than 1 really complex algorithm. I have produced a somewhat usable product, but there are still elements that need tweeking...thus I air my laundry on this forum. And after having you guys promt the thinking process in a few new directions, Ive made some changes...not drastic, but it cleared up what was a shotgun plot into a pretty nice bi-modal distribution consisting of a more reaction component and a more finnesse component for each of the 12 behavior phases i have included in the project...hows this look 1.Weightless 2.D-shot 3.Jig Worm 4.Split Shot 5.T-rig 6.Jig-n-Trailer 7.C-Rig 8.SwimBait 9.Deep Hard Jerk 10.Hollow Frog 11.Hard Jerk Bait 12.Swim Jig 13.Popper 14.Mid-Crank 15.Deep Crank 16.Solid Frog 17.Big SpinnerBait 18.Spinnerbait 19.Chatter Bait 20.BuzzBait 21.Vibration Bait

That makes sense, higher temp=higher rate of reaction due to the movin' around of ions= reactions happening more often in the eye. Thanks for the info!

Im gonna say it probably has to do with the density of the water (cold h2o is more dense than warmer)...i had read this somewhere a while back but had forgotten it. anyway back to density, a uniform tightly "packed" more dense sample of a material with transmit sound waves more efficiently than the same substance in a less dense state. So maybe the decreased temp has a stabilizing effect on the water, but also the fluid within the fishes eye resulting in more efficient transmittal or detection of light? Could be or could be bull.

AVID: Your words are well spoken and well recieved. Your correct in the time and effort investment...thats why although somewhat hesitantly, I went ahead posted this topic...wasnt sure as to the type of response, but the greater the response and the greater number of questions allows for a more thorough thought process and ultimately cuts time investment. When attempting to achieve a "solution" to a "problem" i realize I formulate a hypothesis then attempt to disprove the answers I come up with to solve the "prob" in order to evaluate their validity..im starting to do some stats on my data just to see what degrees of error im getting into. As for the taking the kids fishing goes, I never let anything get in the way of that, and I must confess...this isnt just for the kids!! I work as a data coordinator/analyst/manager for an OIl Co. as a result of experience being a reasercher thus far. I only go to work mon-fri to finance my REAL life which is 1.GOD/2.FAMILY/3.OUTDOORS. So yeah i guess U could say this is a lifes work, but i look at more like a lifelong addiction to the outdoors at least thats how my wife describes it.

HALE: On the spinner bait/ chatterbait deal, its based on profile..granted theres not an awful lot of difference...I look at a c-bait as if it resides somewhere btw a sp-bait and a mid-shallow crank. On the t-rig/C-rig deal, you have two components exerting stmuli a distance from each other on a c-rig creating a "zone" of action, where as all your action is more localized w/ a t-rig. I think I detected a little sarcasm in the 2nd post, but yeah i mean we all know that, but ive been skunked and frustrated, and I want to figure somethings out...I know science (research/data analyzation methods) and have pub'd a few studies (not on fish), so Id like to see how I can do at applying my $70K worth of education toward something I actually like. But thats just my POV, and I hope I dont come across as an ego-maniac...im just a guy who reall really likes to fish...wait no no, catch, really likes to catch

Well Im glad to see Im getting some feedback from you guys, and I really do appreciate it...helps to better quantify certain perceptions that must be overcome, and CHRIS said it best that so much of fishing is mental, maybe not wetting a line in general is mental, but really trying to zero in on that key trigger to maximize success...thats mental. All of you who mentioned the insurmountable pile of variables to consider are on target, except that there is a sort of rule or trend in the natural world that goes like this: A system will be controlled by the most limiting factor. Now considering this, you can in almost every situation eliminate a large number of variables in order to deliniate the highest probability areas as well as the highest probability techniques. Ex. High water Temp combined with clear skies during mid-summer- low wind. This creates a situation whereas many areas can be elimiated as the day progresses as well as eliminating a number of variables. Now the variables that will be eliminated depend on water clarity (theres really only 3 types for an individual body of water) and water temp...well water quality in general, with keeping the presence of available forage in mind. Think about the way a bass makes a living for a moment- they HAVE to find acceptable temp to maintain an accebtable metabolism, they HAVE to find ample forage to accomodate that metabolic rate, and they HAVE to reside in an area with acceptable O2 levels. Those are the HAVE TO's. They want an ambush location, They want an escape route, and they want comfortable accomodations (bottum comp/light diffusion/short distance to food....). So in understanding this, you can exclude certain variables in certain areas at certain times of the day. There are exceptions, and you can catch a fish on anything at any time due to random chance or perserverence, but the majority of a single type of organism will exhibit tendencies toward a common mean (average) behavior at a certain time in a certain place based on a few overwhelming variables. The Scenario previously described is one which I ran into on a few tourneys this year. The first was a near miss, The second was a disaster, and the third was the highest weight Ive ever weighed in. The final scenario (unlike the first two) was one in which I analyzed the situation based on variables which I could exclude initially and then considering those few overwhelming variables, I was able to quickly adjust, and within 45 min I caught 3 keepers over 4lbs apiece and the other two were 2 and 3. My partner laughed at me when I pulled out my "Guide" table (it contains alot more than just reaction rankings of techniques), and it was a last resort to me (Im skeptical too). But it allowed me to focus my thought process on the variables that were affecting the system...not the numerous ones that didnt matter. Since that tourney Ive spent some time testing and tweaking, and many more hours of field testing are necessary, but its going in a good direction. So yes, there are many variables that can be considered, but there are really only a few in a certain situation that matter...those that exhibit the most influence on the system. In response to those that made comments about a fish being able think, Ill just say this, "Logical" thought as we know it is the confusion of instinct due to emotion. If fish could Think they would all be dead. Thats just MHO.