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Garret88

Moderate Fast Tip For Jerkbaits And Topwater?

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Is a moderate fast tip really good for jerkbaits and topwater? I was under the impression you wanted faster tips for those techniques to have more control of your bait during retrieval.

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Some people like a slower tip, some like faster. Personally I prefer faster, I feel like I can really make a bait move like I want it to much easier with a faster tip. 

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Sometimes the terminology is hard to understand. My dedicated jerkbait rod is

a St. Croix Avid AVC66MF with a soft tip. The length makes this rig easy to work,

the blank is firm and loads up quickly. The tip is noticably soft, way too light for a

jig or soft plastics rod.

 

At Bass University all of the pros recommended monofilament line for this technique.

I use Sunline Super Natural #12.

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I like a fast action for jerkbaits and topwaters for the same reason as Bluebasser86, I have more control over the bait but if you work a bait slower then a moderate or moderate fast may work for you. My new jerkbait rod is a medium heavy with a moderate fast action but it is much faster than most moderate fast rods, most  in that action have a soft tip with a parabolic bend while my rod just flexes a little further down the blank but it is a different rod, otherwise I would use a fast action. Also, a fast rod with a soft tip is great, the rod still recovers quick enough that you have control but it flexes easier which helps with fighting a fish.

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the 704cb would make a great topwater rod. i'd personally look at the 684 or 685 but i like a shorter rod for topwaters. the "fast" action on the cb rods isn't "fast" like your typical jig/worm fast action rods. it's fast for a crankbait rod initially when working or casting the bait but when under a load from a fish it turns more moderate than fast. 

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Was looking at the dobyns champion 704CBs. thats why I ask.

call them and ask which is their most popular model for jerkbaits. I believe it is the 634cb or 635 .

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would 684 or 685cb be a good length for squarebills too? for now I need something that can double for both

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would 634 or 635cb be a good length for squarebills too? for now I need something that can double for both

that's a personal preference and really dependent on the size of bait you are using. the 704 is a pretty whippy rod but it can handle 1.5s. the 705 does handle the 1.5s better though. that's going to be really tough if you want to stay in the dobyns line up. i like a longer rod for cranks and a shorter rod for topwater/jerkbaits. i wouldn't want to throw squarebills on my jerkbait rod and vise versa BUT if I HAD to choose one, i'd rather have the 705 for squarebills and lipless cranks and make it work for jerkbaits and topwaters.

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I use a moderate fast with braid. The trick is finding a rod that shows that moderate fast while under load and on the cast, but still has a fast enough yet not to fast tip allowing it to still recover correctly. I lost to many big smallies using fast rods with any lines. Mod fast with braid still allows me to work the bait however I like and keep the fish buttoned up when it makes hard turns and surges.

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Sometimes the terminology is hard to understand. My dedicated jerkbait rod is

a St. Croix Avid AVC66MF with a soft tip. The length makes this rig easy to work,

the blank is firm and loads up quickly. The tip is noticably soft, way too light for a

jig or soft plastics rod.

 

At Bass University all of the pros recommended monofilament line for this technique.

I use Sunline Super Natural #12.

This is my exact jerkbait set up. I was apprehensive at first with a fast tip,  but the soft St. Croix tip and mono it works really well. I like a moderate tip for treble baits, but the tip of this rod has plenty of give and flex, if the fish decides to take a run.

 

I've been messing around with Tatsu and InvisX as well since it has some stretch, but for the money the Super Natural is winner here for me. I hate line memory almost as much as I hate the Longhorns. This set up doubles as my top water set up. I ususally respool every 2-3 months due to the line memory. With the price of Fluoro, the mono has it beat.

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Ahhhhhh! You guys are killing me here!

Talking about rod tapers is not exclusive of the "tip". The taper of the rod is the rod as a whole. You canno have a moderate rod with a fast tip, and you can't have an XFAST rod with a moderate tip. It isn't possible. To introduce a parabolic bend in a rod is specific to the parameter of the entire blank- you cannot have a parabolic "tip." It isn't semantics, it IS the physics of rods. Period. A parabola is defined as a symmetrical open plane curve- any point on a parabola is equidistant from a fixed point at the conical entrance to the directrix. You cannot have a parabolic bend in the "tip" of a rod. You just can't.

Jerkbaits are best fished on a fast or extra fast rod. The reason being is that you need the rod to move the bait, move to recovery or neutral position, and load as rapidly as possible. A slower rod will not do this effectively. You generally are also after a reasonably powerful butt section in a jerkbait rod, which effectively means that you are after something less flexible. This leads to a fast or extra fast taper- the tip of the rod has nothing to do with it.

Look at it this way- the speed of the rod can also be looked at in how rapidly the blank returns to a state of potential energy. As a rod bends more progressively, it is going to take longer to return to rest IE: a slower taper. It is not the power of the rod. The same is true of a rod that does not bend as far down the blank, which is where the misnomer of tip action comes from. When a rod bends only in the very tip section, it is very fast generally. That same rod will also take much less time to return to rest than it's more moderate counterpart.

As previously mentioned, fast or XF rods are more desirable for jerkbaits because of how you want to move the bait. There are exceptions to the rule, but most anglers- myself generally included- cannot effectively control a bait with a rod that is too slow. The second aspect of that, is that you are generally unable to feel the subtle takes with a slower rod.

When it comes to jerbait rods I would be happy, and am happy, to spend as much on them as I do my jig rods. Essentially, that's what I am looking for, really. I want a rod that is super sensitive, ultra quick in hand as well as in taper, and I want it to respond to everything. The same qualities I look for in a jig rod, albeit in a shorter package.

When it comes to length in jerkbait rods, I'm a very firm believer in shorter is better. I've only met one person in my entire life that can effectively fish a 7-0 rod for jerkbaits; and he's 6-10. Too long a rod and you're slapping the gunnel, the water, or you're sweeping the rod too far. I fish a 7-0 for one style of jerkbait, however it's a bait that I work with the reel, not the rod. Optimal length for the average person is something between 6-3 and 6-6. I fish more modified 6-8 rods than anything. They start as 6-8 rods that I have trimmed the butt and handle and refinished. In doing so, I've allowed a handle length that I can still utilize effectively without getting it caught on clothes or my arms, and I still have enough leverage.

Sorry for the rant- but I see this come up so often that I can't always hold it in. Look in the jerkbait thread for really good info, as well. Search this forum for jerkbait rod threads, too. There was one somewhat recently that is superb for the information in contains. There are a couple or elite series pros that chimed in on that one, and I think an unnamed rod designer as well.

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Ahhhhhh! You guys are killing me here!

Talking about rod tapers is not exclusive of the "tip". The taper of the rod is the rod as a whole. You canno have a moderate rod with a fast tip, and you can't have an XFAST rod with a moderate tip. It isn't possible. To introduce a parabolic bend in a rod is specific to the parameter of the entire blank- you cannot have a parabolic "tip." It isn't semantics, it IS the physics of rods. Period. A parabola is defined as a symmetrical open plane curve- any point on a parabola is equidistant from a fixed point at the conical entrance to the directrix. You cannot have a parabolic bend in the "tip" of a rod. You just can't.

Jerkbaits are best fished on a fast or extra fast rod. The reason being is that you need the rod to move the bait, move to recovery or neutral position, and load as rapidly as possible. A slower rod will not do this effectively. You generally are also after a reasonably powerful butt section in a jerkbait rod, which effectively means that you are after something less flexible. This leads to a fast or extra fast taper- the tip of the rod has nothing to do with it.

Look at it this way- the speed of the rod can also be looked at in how rapidly the blank returns to a state of potential energy. As a rod bends more progressively, it is going to take longer to return to rest IE: a slower taper. It is not the power of the rod. The same is true of a rod that does not bend as far down the blank, which is where the misnomer of tip action comes from. When a rod bends only in the very tip section, it is very fast generally. That same rod will also take much less time to return to rest than it's more moderate counterpart.

As previously mentioned, fast or XF rods are more desirable for jerkbaits because of how you want to move the bait. There are exceptions to the rule, but most anglers- myself generally included- cannot effectively control a bait with a rod that is too slow. The second aspect of that, is that you are generally unable to feel the subtle takes with a slower rod.

When it comes to jerbait rods I would be happy, and am happy, to spend as much on them as I do my jig rods. Essentially, that's what I am looking for, really. I want a rod that is super sensitive, ultra quick in hand as well as in taper, and I want it to respond to everything. The same qualities I look for in a jig rod, albeit in a shorter package.

When it comes to length in jerkbait rods, I'm a very firm believer in shorter is better. I've only met one person in my entire life that can effectively fish a 7-0 rod for jerkbaits; and he's 6-10. Too long a rod and you're slapping the gunnel, the water, or you're sweeping the rod too far. I fish a 7-0 for one style of jerkbait, however it's a bait that I work with the reel, not the rod. Optimal length for the average person is something between 6-3 and 6-6. I fish more modified 6-8 rods than anything. They start as 6-8 rods that I have trimmed the butt and handle and refinished. In doing so, I've allowed a handle length that I can still utilize effectively without getting it caught on clothes or my arms, and I still have enough leverage.

Sorry for the rant- but I see this come up so often that I can't always hold it in. Look in the jerkbait thread for really good info, as well. Search this forum for jerkbait rod threads, too. There was one somewhat recently that is superb for the information in contains. There are a couple or elite series pros that chimed in on that one, and I think an unnamed rod designer as well.

I know we have had this debate before, however let's keep in mind fast actions differ between rod companies. When you say you can not have a moderate rod with a fast tip the 1st generation Phenix recons come to mind. Yeah, it's not a true fast, but labeled as such. I have a 6'10 MH Fenwick Elite Tech that is labeled as a moderate fast, yet fishes faster than say my "fast" Kistler magnesium. Dobyns fast action Champion rods are also not what I would consider a true fast action and they work great for rip baits. There are moderate fast rods out there that do recover quite nicely. Perhaps you have a slower, true moderate action rod in mind? I rarely miss fish on a mod fast rod with braid, and thankfully I'm not loosing them any longer. To each his own, but you do not need a fast action rod to work a jerkbait effectively, however if you were KVD style ripping them I could see your point.

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684cb for small and medium stuff. 705 cb for bigger jerkbaits

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I know we have had this debate before, however let's keep in mind fast actions differ between rod companies. When you say you can not have a moderate rod with a fast tip the 1st generation Phenix recons come to mind.

 

Yes fast action tapers vary from one company to another, but you cannot have a separate action in the tip of the rod alone.  You cannot have a moderate rod with a fast tip, it's physically impossible without changing the blank density and taper on the whole.  The result of that would be a compound taper which you can't scrim for.

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I prefer to use a rod with as close to a fast taper as possible. Usually with treble hooks I want a moderate action to help keep the fish on, but with a Jerkbait it is just easier to get the action you want with the faster action. I just make up for it with new stronger/bigger treble hooks to keep the fish buttoned.

 

I guess I should add that Since I am a really tall guy I prefer a Rod around my height or a hair shorter so I dont hit the boat or anything else with the tip So I shoot for a 6'6" to a 6'8" in M/F.

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 I use a 6'10" Medium action fast tip for jerkbaits and topwaters.  I have always tried to use either a medium action, fast tip or a medium heavy action, mod-fast Rod for those baits.

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I use a short, medium power, extra fast rod for jerks and walkers. Control and recovery time is crucial.

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Great Reponse DVT. I like it when you get all technical. LOL

 

My jerkbait rod is a Setyr 6'6" medium power stick with what looks like an X-fast action. They don't say what it is, but the bend under load is consistent with other xfast rods I own.

 

I think the Avid 6'8" M-XF is a perfect jerkbait blank. Too bad the handle is so dad-blasted long. That's a problem with a lot of rods made these days. But that's a topic for a different thread.

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Well I was kind of hoping to get two birds with one stone with these techniques but with all the responses I'm thinking that may be highly unlikely.

 

Oh well! Guess I have an excuse to buy more rods!   :toothy12:

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