Or you can make it simple and just use NMB stainless from the get go.  They're used by Isuzu, Daiwa, and Shimano across their entire product lines.  These are the same bearings found in precision machining tools, dental tools, and aircraft instrument panels.  They're arguably the best quality bearing you can get and are made in such high volumes that they can be bought cheap.  Here is a NMB DDL-1150Y04 with a thin film lube applied.  I use this exact bearing on my ABU 2500Cs.  They rival Hedgehog Airs and come at a quarter the price. 

 

https://imgur.com/a/QVx6bJ4

 

 

Ceramic coated balls inside a ball bearing? This is the first i hear of this. Just bought a few of these ceramic hybrids, i hope these aren't just coated with ceramic. It says the ball is made out of silicon nitrid ceramic so it shouldn't.

10 hours ago, ABU is overpriced said:

I don't see how you would damage a normal spool from just tightening a knot. And there's no need to tighten it that hard, just put a small piece of masking tape on the knot, and the line won't have any way of slipping on the spool.

I’m very OCD about my bottom of spool knots. I normally tighten them super tight with the help of a pliers . If I get a fish that takes me to the bottom of the spool I want her coming it the boat. Probably not a bass but a toothy fish could definitely do that even on 50lb braid.
I’m going to fish the reel more today. If all seems well I’ll try to stop thinking about it. 

51 minutes ago, 10,000 lakes Bassin said:

I’m very OCD about my bottom of spool knots. I normally tighten them super tight with the help of a pliers . If I get a fish that takes me to the bottom of the spool I want her coming it the boat. Probably not a bass but a toothy fish could definitely do that even on 50lb braid.
I’m going to fish the reel more today. If all seems well I’ll try to stop thinking about it. 

I used to do this as well, but a fish that is capable of spooling you, will most likely explode your knot if it gets to it. The only time this has happened to me is when i snagged a sturgeon that was most likely 50lb+ and in heavy current. In normal situations this doesn't happen.

1 hour ago, redmeansdistortion said:

Or you can make it simple and just use NMB stainless from the get go.  They're used by Isuzu, Daiwa, and Shimano across their entire product lines.  These are the same bearings found in precision machining tools, dental tools, and aircraft instrument panels.  They're arguably the best quality bearing you can get and are made in such high volumes that they can be bought cheap.  Here is a NMB DDL-1150Y04 with a thin film lube applied.  I use this exact bearing on my ABU 2500Cs.  They rival Hedgehog Airs and come at a quarter the price. 

 

https://imgur.com/a/QVx6bJ4

 

 

Where might a person  obtain these bearings? 

23 hours ago, 10,000 lakes Bassin said:

Putting some new line on a ‘21 zillion and I pulled hard to tighten the knot at the bottom of the spool. I heard a little “pop” and it got me really worried I messed something up by pulling on the spool too hard. If it casts fine and reels normally is there anything to worry about? I’m not to good with reels so I’m not confident in taking it apart and double checking to make sure it’s all good.
So fish it and see if there are any issues? @Delaware Valley Tackle has some advice? Thanks. 

It was probably just the knot locking down. If you’d done any damage you’d see noticeable symptoms. Don’t stress over it. Just use it normally and keep an eye on it. 

20 hours ago, F14A-B said:

Where might a person  obtain these bearings? 

Buy them in bulk from Japan, they run about $1-$2 each after shipping.  If you buy them domestically they run about $7 each. 

 

http://zikuuke.shop35.makeshop.jp/smartphone/index.html

 

Make sure you cross reference the model number with the catalog because some bearings may be of different dimensions.  Take for instance the 1150 size.  NMB has two, the DDL-1150ZZ and DDL-1150ZZY04.  The 1150 is 5x11x5, while the 1150Y04 is 5x11x4.  DDR and DDL models are full stainless while those beginning with a L or R (R-1150ZZ) are chromed steel. 

 

https://mkt.minebeamitsumi.com/bearing_catalog_en

For those concerned about weight, full ceramics work well. I've been using them for years. Love them!

 

I run them dry and love the whine on the cast. I now use the whine to help judge my casts.

 

I was casting a reel with full-zirconia-ceramic across a tide pass, and my buddy 130' away complained about the noise - I switched to KTF/IXA hybrid ceramic.  

 

full-silicon-nitride ceramic are also quieter.  

Opened up my Tat CT FROM 2020

 

It's never been maintainced before, still runs great 

 

Here's how the guts looked 

 

What's that red part? Was under brass gear and on top of the saw lookin thing

It's a washer, I think they call it a "main gear washer" (not sure) i know the one used in older Daiwa reels was hard and easy to break. It was sometimes difficult or expensive to source.

Saw blade is what resets your thumb-bar (clutch). I'm just guessing here but it might be the "clutch trip plate". Always make sure you have the teeth pointed to the front of the reel or your thumb-bar/clutch won't reset...

The red one is also a drag washer.

 

If you look how the drag stack is put together, the A/R ratchet is what the drag star is cranking down against to create drag pressure since it is locked in place to the main drive shaft. Drag is created on both sides of the main drive gear.

 

So the main drive gear is sandwiched between those two drag washers. This is why when you go looking for new drag washers for that reel you find this:

 

 

The washer shown on the right is the replacement for the red washer. Kind of funny the two carbon fiber washers above don't match. They don't have to, but these types of washers are made from whatever sheets of cross weave carbon fiber they can buy cheapest and punch these out of it.

 

Also notice the replacement top drag washer is wider than stock washer meaning more contact surface area if key plate is flat leading to slightly more drag in the replacement washer.

 

From an engineering perspective, the cross weave carbon fiber materials used are not even braking materials. What makes them so "smooth" is because the graphite is a lubricant itself, and then people put grease all over them so they are even smoother. All that smoothness is caused by slippage.

 

Who puts grease on their car brake pads? When you hit the brakes do you want the car to stop or keep going on smooth brakes? Smooth in a reel means the drag is slipping and sliding. It suppose to be a brake. But we can get away with it in reels for small fish because enough drag can be had to battle small fish. Out on the ocean fighting huge marlin and sharks 8 feet long and they will shred cross weave carbon fiber drag washers because it is simply not made for it. Loose fibers held together with a little bit of epoxy don't hold up out there. I used to have some photos of what they look like after a big fish. I'll see if I can find them.

 

One thing to keep in mind and you almost never hear about this, is that the red washer is also an engineered shim of a specific thickness. That red washer is a gear alignment washer that dictates precisely how the main gear fits to the pinion gear. Change the thickness of that washer and your gear alignment changes.

 

So if someone removes the red washer and puts in another type of washer, it should be the same thickness. If not, the gears that wore into each other one way will now change placement. Is that a good thing or bad thing? One will find out real fast.

 

In some older reels with an A/R dog, it would bind up if a thinner washer was used on backside of gear. The thickness of that washer was critical to not only gear alignment, but also providing enough space for the A/R dog on those A/R ratchet plates. I ran into this recently on a 40 year old Shimano the guy used without maintenance for 40 years and cranked it down super tight and always left it that way. He compressed both of the drag washers and caused noise and binding because now metal parts were coming into contact with each other inside, and that washer was no longer keeping the proper spacing to keep those parts from touching as he turned the handle to retrieve.

 

Those cross weave carbon fiber so called washers compress very easily since at the surface on both sides they are nothing more than loose fibers held together internally by epoxy.

 

The above Tatula CT reel shows Daiwa has pulled a fast one on consumers. Probably advertised as having carbon fiber drag washer which it does, but only half of the drag. The other half is the red washer Daiwa probably does not want the consumer to replace.

 

Who knows, maybe Daiwa is telling us by keeping a non-carbon fiber drag washer in there that they want more drag than two of them would provide? Or, maybe they are telling us the alignment is more important? Change at your own risk.

 

@Banned User

Same red washer is on my Ryoga - it's corundum, and should be run dry.  

Swab red washer and mating surfaces with alcohol.  

 

Swap to brass hyperdrive gears from later Basara - note the difference in pinion teeth profile.  

Right here on this forum in the show and tell thread are posts showing how some are reducing weight inside of reels by removing heavier parts and replacing with lightweight plastic aftermarket parts.

 

What is interesting to me is that in the show and tell comments this is viewed as some how being a "more wonderful" improvement. 

 

So in this comment I will show the opposite.

 

When a reel manufacturer makes this same mistake of trying to make a cheaper plastic part to meet the demand of the consumers for lightweight reels, take a look at the results as found in some round reels- this is the gear that turns the worm gear. What you are seeing are real world results. The people in the show and tell thread maintain their reels to like new daily and represent less than 1% of 1% of real world results that wind up in reel repair shops daily across USA.

 

 

And, to fix this mistake of a manufacturer, look what their engineers had to do with the factory replacement part "fix"

 

 

Yep. They had to put metal back into the reels. Lightweight reels is not always the best thing. You won't find this in the aftermarket parts selections.

This old Shimano reel was used for 40 years without any maintenance of any kind. When my buddy handed it to me to overhaul for him, it was falling apart. Handle was worn out as well as some innerds. He ground this reel to a halt before he was willing to "pay" to service it.

 

He had used this reel as his worm reel for 40 years. So he locked the drag down tight and left it that way for 40 years compressing both drag washers slowly over time.

 

When I received this reel it was binding up and no longer had a working anti-reverse. He had worn out the A/R dog and was binding it up between the A/R ratchet plate and main drive gear because the drag washer under main drive gear compressed to the point that the necessary space the A/R dog needed to clear the main drive gear was no longer there. It was metal on metal in this reel. Toast.

 

40 years of use with zero maintenance right here:

• 

 

So I rebuilt it and put new drag washers in it resetting the missing spacing needed and replaced the A/R dog with a newer version that no longer has brass spring but now a factory replacement with newer steel spring. Not sure if you can see the tips of the A/R dog spring, but it is worn off. Gone. 40 years of no lubrication and metal on metal rubbing constantly.

 

I also had an old Bush Hawg 2 speed handle laying around and he said he wanted it even if its not the right color he don't care. So now this 40 year old reel is a 2 speed reel and he loves it now. He can't believe how much further he can cast it now. Back to operating like new while looking like 40 years old. This reel should outlive him now since he's 66. Don't think he will make it to this reel's next service job when he turns 106 years old!

 

 

See the difference between 40 year old stock dog above and new and improved version below? On stock dog above the tips of spring are worn off. Gone. It would not even stay on the A/R ratchet plate any longer. No AR on this old reel when I got it.

 

Shimano changed from a softer metal to a stronger, harder, more durable metal. From brass or copper to solid steel below. Huge difference in wear ability now.

 

 

 

This is another ICAST reel. A Shimano Curado CU200B. (1994-2003)

 

It has been used in Florida for decades without servicing. When I got it in hand I could spin handle but spool did not turn. I could push cast button but reel would not re-engage from cast mode.

 

Once inside I found the clutch cam retainer had corroded from years of saltwater exposure. It had swollen in size binding up the pinion yoke halfway up the legs. Stuck. Not moving up or down. So that part had to be replaced.

 

 

 

Once reel was back together, another very serious problem became apparent. In these older shimano reels, the plastic pin retainer mounted on the spool cracks over time right under the brake shoe pins. On this reel, one of those pins slid out of the retainer and was in direct contact with the brake drum. And it was used like this for years because the user did not know there was even a problem there.

 

 

So the tip of this pin gouged a groove into the brake drum on every cast and every retrieve. Constant grinding away in there.

 

 

So on this reel to finish the overhaul job, it is going to need a new spool which are no longer available but other "cracked" old spools can be purchased, but will put user right back into same situation down the road. So I ordered up some new centrifugal brake retainers. These are not a separate part number and is a courtesy thing between Shimano and warranty service centers for special request parts like this.

 

 

And this old reel will also get a "new" used side plate with acceptable brake drum surface that is not gouged out by a loose brake pin.

 

And all the brake shoes have to be replaced because their braking tips reshaped to the gouge in the drum. So to brake properly, new flat tipped brake shoes matching new flat drum surface is mandatory.

 

I can only imagine how many times this curado user wondered about the screeching pin on brake drum and for how long did they try and use it that way?

 

Its back to fishing again now.

 

It sure would be nice if every reel I get to work on looks shiny and brand spanking new like a lot of reels seen around here. But in the "reel" world this is what I get on the bench with "Can you fix it?"

 

 

On 7/20/2025 at 11:27 AM, bulldog1935 said:

I was casting a reel with full-zirconia-ceramic across a tide pass, and my buddy 130' away complained about the noise - I switched to......

 

 

So your buddy's "whine" was louder than the full ceramics! Got it! 😉

 

Most of my fishing buddies are running full ceramics as well. So our boats are nothing but a bunch whining whiners! Constant whining. That's OK, just crank up the tunes to hide the whine and keep fishin'!

 

Seriously, though I wouldn't change them back for anything now. I love 'em.

 

Heck, I even tried the plastic version bearings. Not going there again. I can't believe they even made plastic retainer bearings.

 

again with that?  working on a reel that looks life that is theft - whatever parts you put into it will end up contaminated and corroded by the parts you left in

Its not a perfect world for sure. I see lot's of "agains" here myself. Its all designed to share information so we can all benefit from it.

 

All the customer wants is for it to be fixed and working. Corrosion time rates are not relevant to most customers. Just get it working again and see ya next time it fails.

 

Its a lot of labor cleaning them up. Kind of nice seeing them work again. For how long? Who knows. Just how it goes. I just do as told. He says fix it. I say yes sir. Jumping right on it.

 

Reel techs in other states far from saltwater have it made in the shade.

32 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

working on a reel that looks like that is theft - whatever parts you put into it will end up contaminated and corroded by the parts you left in

 

That's an interesting take. The customer walked through the front door and put the reel on counter with request to fix it. We do as told and paid to do. But I don't see how it is "theft" in any way?

 

Any reused parts are thoroughly cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner with chemical solution that cleans back to bare metal, so I don't see how cleaned older parts reused would cause issues with new parts?

 

The problem with corrosion is from the contact with saltwater. It should affect the old reused parts and new parts about the same.

There comes a point where it makes more financial sense for the owner to cut their losses and just buy something new.  This is something I experience often with charter customers where the parts and labor will cost more than a brand new reel.  Most of them run cheaper Okumas like the Coldwater and Convector.  Their customers are notoriously hard on the equipment.  With recreational guys, my only true exceptions are the more sought after older models, just because you can't get them new anymore.  Even then, I'll recommend they buy a nicer used one and have me go through it.

 

I understand doing what the customer wants, but it saves us both time and money to recommend new if the situation warrants it.  Labor charges can add up quickly.  I had a guy some years back with a Shimano Baitrunner he said he dropped in the sand on a Florida trip.  I opened it up and it was nasty in there, full of sand and salt.  The labor charge alone was $120.  I sent him pictures of the progress and he seemed all giddy.  The final tally was ~$160, $20 shy of a brand new one.  After a month of unreturned calls and texts, I sent him a certified letter stating that he had 60 days to pick up his reel or it will be considered abandoned property and sold to recoup any losses.  Gotta CYA, even doing reel work.  I got a whole $80 for it, around what they sold for used at the time.  

In order to fix that reel properly, every part would need a 3-hour vinegar bath - as a start.  

The level of complete disassembly, attention to detail, then replacing parts that are beyond use would buy a couple of reels.  

Better than that, tell the customer, "sorry, this is beyond hope."

Vinegar? They don't use that in the shop. Is that brand approved? We have to follow brand protocols or lose warranty contracts.

 

They do have an acid bath for badly corroded parts, but its not vinegar. But I guess that will work slowly. Shops tend to move a little faster. Have to.

18 minutes ago, redmeansdistortion said:

There comes a point where it makes more financial sense for the owner to cut their losses and just buy something new.  This is something I experience often with charter customers where the parts and labor will cost more than a brand new reel.  Most of them run cheaper Okumas like the Coldwater and Convector.  Their customers are notoriously hard on the equipment.  With recreational guys, my only true exceptions are the more sought after older models, just because you can't get them new anymore.  Even then, I'll recommend they buy a nicer used one and have me go through it.

 

I understand doing what the customer wants, but it saves us both time and money to recommend new if the situation warrants it.  Labor charges can add up quickly.  I had a guy some years back with a Shimano Baitrunner he said he dropped in the sand on a Florida trip.  I opened it up and it was nasty in there, full of sand and salt.  The labor charge alone was $120.  I sent him pictures of the progress and he seemed all giddy.  The final tally was ~$160, $20 shy of a brand new one.  After a month of unreturned calls and texts, I sent him a certified letter stating that he had 60 days to pick up his reel or it will be considered abandoned property and sold to recoup any losses.  Gotta CYA, even doing reel work.  I got a whole $80 for it, around what they sold for used at the time.  

Very true and the downside to the bizness for sure. We had that same problem as well.

 

For me though, I loved going through the rods customers abandoned- and reels. We got first shot at them so its not all bad. But yeah, not nice when customers tell us to do something and then refuse to pay up. I am with ya on that one.

 

We got a lot of reels across the counter from people saying this belonged to dearly departed granddad or their father. So to them repair costs did not matter on sentimental reels. Can't say to those people its cheaper to replace it. But I get it.

 

I have acquired some nice rods out of the abandoned pile.

This Leonard BiMetal, made by Philbrook and Payne in the 1880s, is only worth $3000.  

(wish I could have gotten to those screws before someone else did)

 

Nice job! Neat old reel. Don't think I have ever even seen one of those. I bet there aren't many of those around. Should be in a museum. That goes beyond reel maintenance to reel restoration.

 

 

Just finishing up another ICAST reel, a BPS Rick Clunn reel. Customer had unusual complaint. He said when I crank down on drag it starts making a grinding sound and feels rough. Backing off on the drag removing pressure and it clears up.

 

OK, let's pop the hood and take a look. And I found this:

 

 

3 screws hold down to the frame the clutch yoke retainer. Notice anything? 2 out of 3 screws are not tightened down. The two on the left. The one on the right was nice and tight.

 

Could these have backed out on their own? Or did someone get into this reel and forget to tighten them down? Either way, a unique thing I don't recall seeing before. I'm betting someone just forgot to tighten them down.

 

That loose screw closest to drive shaft was grinding on underside of A/R ratchet plate. I could have just tightened them down and put reel back together but went ahead with a cleaning and lube job on it.

 

BTW, that red Doyo yoke in this reel is the same one in a hundred other Doyo reels from Bass Pro to Browning and others.

2 hours ago, FloridaFishinFool said:

We got a lot of reels across the counter from people saying this belonged to dearly departed granddad or their father. So to them repair costs did not matter on sentimental reels. Can't say to those people its cheaper to replace it. But I get it.

Oh yeah I get those too.  I just did a Zebco Cardinal 3 for a guy, inherited it from dad.  His dad bought it back in the 70s but hadn't fished it in probably 40 years.  Really nice shape externally, but on the inside, the grease was hard, weak bail springs, and a little bit of sand.  I went through and did my thing, and now it's going steelhead fishing here in a couple of months.  These reels are super famous among steelheaders here, mostly because you can take them bushwhacking and you'll still be fishing. 

 

For as popular as these are, they're also very overlooked.  With the right spool, they're fantastic.  Drag is low with a max of ~4lb, but that's plenty for light line fishing.  This is probably my favorite designed spinner; it's simple and performs spectacularly.  Abu made the mistake of not running with the ball after the C series, the successor to the original made from '84-'90 or so.  A company named Daysprout still makes the Cardinal 3 in limited runs every year or two.  They use original ABU tooling to recreate them, and now they make them in Japan.  What's funny is that the foot still says Made in Sweden, but that's because they're using the original tooling.  A new Cardinal 3 runs about $450+, and most are seemingly bought by collectors.