KenDammit28

wherever I'm catching the most fish is my favorite

shoot a laser beam at a fish, do whatever you have to do..but an AUTOMATIC RESPONSE TO STIMULI IS NOT FEELING PAIN! A bass' automatic response to heat is to move to an area thats cooler. Pain is not driving them to do so...they automatically seek to keep their body temperature at an acceptable temperature. You think that heat is foreign to a bass? How can you not understand without the necessary brain parts to process "pain", one CANNOT FEEL PAIN Automatic response is NOT overtaken by reason in humans. Dropping the hot pan, the example you used, is automatic response to stimulation....its not rocket science. Automatic responses are happening constantly. Are you breathing right now? If so, you're body is having an automatic response. A bass breathes because its automatic...they see because its automatic, they eat because its automatic, they avoid dangerous things because its automatic...the end. we're talking about the actual evidence here. Go ahead and try to do it. You have presented no known truths in this entire argument. Perhaps thats the reason you had such a tough time with those activists.

Matt, I used to do that all the time but then those peskie peta's started getting mad about it.

Lol, the ONLY people pushing that ONE study are PETA. No one else believes it, but PETA. Only PETA representatives try and defend it. Quacks like a duck, looks like a duck.... BTW http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/Zoology/faculty/rose/Critique%20of%20Sneddon%20article2.doc read that.

that example of why you can't is the exact "study" backed by PETA and showed no real signs that it was a feeling of pain that caused the reaction. If I poisoned you, do you think your body would have an adverse reaction to it, even without the feeling of pain? Do you think it would cause reflexes in your nerves such as muscle twitching, contraction, rapid movements and so forth? Of course it would, its poison..which is why it kills. Bee venom is a poison and thus, it will cause an adverse reaction in ANY body, not just those with the ability to feel pain. Further, believing the findings of a group such as PETA is not a very smart way to go about this debate. After all, those are the same people who think its perfectly fine to cause harm to humans in order to "protect animals" and like to liken fishing to hooking cats and dogs(which are mammals, completely different than fish). If you want to believe the garbage that group spews and call them 'scientists", then go ahead, you're standing on very shaky ground. One need not feel pain in order to have a reflex action to painful or damaging stimuli. It happens with all forms of life, and happens to us humans every day. Being the way we are, though..we think that everything MUST feel pain because we're not able to detect the moments between stimulation and the perception of pain..we think it just happens, even though it doesn't. We're just going to assume that because birds and mammals feel pain, fish must feel it, too? All I see in that second link you posted are a few assumptions not backed up by any facts and sounds like its more trying to convince people of something which they have no idea about rather than dispute scientific evidence. Sorry, I already have scientific evidence done by someone who's NOT associated with a group willing to do anything to "protect" any animal they see fit. What facts do you have that are "undisputed?"

PFD = Personal Flotation Device a.k.a a life jacket

just a follow up so that you know who James D. Rose is http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/10/1044725683181.html heres more describing what I was talking about with the pain receptors http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/faq/pain.htm more on "feeling" pain http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/feb98/886297343.Zo.r.html the "scientific study" done on the trout you refer to http://www.fishingmagic.com/news/article/mps/UAN/2416/SP/330371628436272377430/v/1 using bee venom as a measure of feeling pain?? lol. I don't think it takes a real genius to even understand that those "responses" from the fish are not because they "feel pain"...its a response of the nervous system due to being poisoned....not a terribly hard finding. BTW, that "study" was under the influence of PETA...hmmm..the people also responsible for the site fishinghurts.com...wow, subjective anyone? http://www.abc.gov.au/science/news/stories/s844965.htm

Jim, unless you have the necessary brain parts to actually register what your nerves are saying as pain, then there is no pain to be felt. Fish do not have a brain with the requirements to do so. An automated response from the nervous system does not equate to you knowing that there is pain being inflicted upon you because you have no way to recognize it, and thus, you don't feel "hurt" by whats happening. Automatic responses are not indicative of feeling pain. Its an indication of protection response. Heres something I found that I read some time ago.. http://www.g-feuerstein.com/Presse/fishpain.htm

having "Pain receptors" does not equate to "feeling pain" You have to have something to register the stimulation of those receptors, and fish don't have the capability. It no more complex than that. They just can't do it. Buzzbaitfool, deer and beavers are not the same as fish. Fish are reptiles, the animals you're speaking of are mammals just like us and as such, have brains developed and comprised in much the same way we do. They do feel pain, because their brain has the capability to do so. Its still not the same kind of pain that we feel, but they do feel it. Fish on the other hand, have no way of "recognizing" pain. Their actions are controlled automatically by the spinal cord and brainstem, not thought processes or reasoning or logic or anything else. Automated response. Believe it or not, our brain also works that way, in milliseconds our brain tells our body to pull away without our having to think to do so, but then our brain goes a step further and is able to tell us "that hurts" by registering the information that the nerves are sending.

do things without brains experience pain, then? There have been studies of things such as amoeba and Starfish that move away from or act adversely to damaging stimuli, even without a brain. Do they feel pain?

an automatic response to a stimulus. You're giving the fish brain far too much credit in this thread. They are not complex brains, but rather involuntary controllers. Fish fight because the spinal cord and brainstem are responding to nociceptive stimulus(The pull they experience when being hooked). First, the spinal cord reacts automatically by putting the fish into locomotion(the jerking and stuff we feel). The response to the stimulus travels on to the brainstem where avoidance and more locomotion are generated...a.k.a. protective responses. From there(in a human) it would then travel to the cerebral hemisphere where we would turn the stimulus into an awareness of fear and/or pain. Fish lack that ability because they don't have cerebral hemispheres with the ability to do that. Until it reaches this point, there is no conscious awareness of whats happening, it just does, and thus..there is no "fear" or "pain"(both psychological responses, not physical responses). In humans though, we think it happens because we "feel pain" but really it just happens so quickly that we can't separate the two things, the stimulus and the feeling. To continue on that, other animals, like mammals and other vertebrates have different sizes of frontal lobes(responsible for pain) and all feel pain in different ways. Not everything feels like a human, and I think thats something that YOU must accept.

if a bass feels pain then I think they'd starve in lakes where spiny fish and crawdads are the main forage. Bass get poked and stuck and prodded countless times a day just eating. They can't always grab prey in the perfect position to make it go down nice and easy..its a violent attack that happens in any direction. As for fish fighting back when hooked, its a natural INSTINCT very separate from the perception of pain and injury. They are being moved in an unnatural way, a way they understand they aren't trying to go. Its just a behavior used automatically to protect themselves from stimulus(known as a flight response). It doesn't have anything to do with pain, its just about survival. If you "spook" a fish and it swims away, did you cause it any "pain"? No, it reacted to a "threat" and moved away. If you splash the water and chase off a fish, did you cause it pain? No, it moved away from possible threat. When being chased by a predator fish, a prey fish will swim away and try to remove itself from danger. The same thing is happening when hooked, the only difference is that it can't "get away". Whats even more impressive is that fish don't have "fear", either. They dont' have a brain capable of processing that emotion. When running away from another fish, it is not fear that drives them, rather just survival instinct. Even the smallest of life, things without brains, move away from things they consider as "danger". That has nothing to do with logic and reason, just instinct...theres no trick to it. Fish have one of if not THE simplest brains of the vertebrates. All the processes of their body are controlled by the brainsteam, vs. our neocortex and large cerebral hemispheres. The actions of a fish are pretty much automatic, not based on awareness or sensory consciousness. In humans, the brainstem controls things like breathing, laughing, vocalization(not complex words, just sound), balance...very simple "instinctive" things. Fish eat, breathe, and move..they are not complex individuals. Fish also lack frontal lobes(the thing in our brains responsible for the emotional response we call "pain"). If you take the frontal lobes away from humans, we'd feel no pain. We'd still get hurt, maybe even killed, but it would not "hurt". Pain itself is a psychological thing, not a physical thing. It is perceptual and emotional. Remember that injury and pain are not the same thing. Fish are essentially "emotionless" animals that do not think or reason or use logic or feel pain or get "scared", they just don't have the brain power to do it.

boy, one day I'm gonna have to come to GA and fish :\

Heres a few things. RSBreth: ESPN surely doesn't view the outdoors as a niche market when they've aired an entire week long(maybe 3 or 4 days?) competition dedicated to the outdoors..the great outdoor games. If ESPN brings something to the air its because they feel they can get a lot of national viewers..not a niche. Aside from that, they are the TOTAL sports network. Zel, I don't think that B.A.S.S. will be non-televised ever again. The coverage of FLW by FSN won't allow that to happen. As we know with all things, it eventually becomes about money and BASS can't stand to lose any of it. I'd rather watch Bill Dance and Jimmy Houston ten times before watching some guy(Jerry McKinnis) show old fishing footage that provides no intellectual viewpoint about the fishing conditions. I could care less about all the stories with some old friend..I want to be informed and understand things better. I'd say that the majority of people watch shows about fishing to be 10% entertained, 90% informed..ESPN apparently doesn't understand this. Schooled by Denny Loudmouth Bass Basstech(however cheesy, it was informative on new products and ways people can get by affordably, in some cases) BassCenter A day on the Lake previous weeks tournament coverage They COULD have made a lineup of shows people would actually watch..but they put the axe to them all..their own failure Now we have Rods and Wheels(whatever it is....I just know its ridiculous to watch) Jerry McKinnis(woohooo...I love smallie footage from 1973!) and I have lost contact with whatever else is on there now As has been said..just skip the TV on saturdays and go fishing...its not worth the time you're gonna inevitably waste on what they show now.

BASS Saturday turned into a waste of time about....the time they started showing Jerry McKinnis' fishing hole. THe guy knows his fishing and all that, but I don't wanna watch someone fish..I want to hear them talk about whats going on while they're fishing...if you get what I'm saying.

I don't think its fair to suggest that fishing in a pond is not a challenge. In my opinion, the two bodies of water are totally different ballgames. Lakes have their own challenges with regards to producing fish and ponds have theirs. Is fishing the same lake every day you go fishing really a challenge? If you know the water so well that you know where fish are and how they're usually biting and what they'll be biting on at any given time..is that a challenge? I don't know about everyone elses ponds but the ones I go to, you have to work for the fish just like you work in a lake. They're not just sitting in the water waiting to see a hook..it takes a lot of effort.

lol total child moment..but it looks like the two fish are having a conversation. Ones yelling(I bet its the female!) and the other one(a bored and totally tuned out male) is just sitting there waiting to get a word in!

OK, where do we actually announce the challenge to the person we're supposed to be challenging? For instance, I'm supposed to challenge CJbasswhacker, but where do I do it?

night time? A serious answer..any time can be good..there is no "best" time. Fish don't sleep..they can't sleep...they are constantly alert, although not always moving around. Fish are designed to be "on" 24/7.

usually once or twice a week..but this summer I've only been fishing 5 times...really sucks

lol, nice baseball references guys... what about when you're at an away game??? then its just from the knees to the waist!

think of it as an area that the bass has marked off and said "if you get in this area..I'm gonna eat you" its like when we were kids and we drew a line and said "don't cross this line or I'll hit you" or something. Anyway, the bass determines it, and its always changing..but essentially when someone says "keep it in the strike zone" it means you want to keep your lure as close to where the fish is "holding" and you want to keep it there for as long as possible. Its thought to be unproductive to fish outside this "zone" because the fish isn't willing to come eat the lure. speaking in terms of examples...think of a spinnerbait...its usually travelling through the water at a certain depth as you retrieve. Your ideal situation would be to have the lure running at a depth that would keep the bait close enough to the bass and in its line of sight for as long as possible...thats all there is to it, really. Say the bass are at 15 feet..you wouldn't want to be fishing at 5 feet, you'd probably be out of the "zone". You'd wanna get it more towards 10 or 12....something like that.

thats what I meant with depth change. The more shallow the water, the less choppy or disturbed its gonna look. Weeds and other things will calm the flow of water down and make it appear "still" in an otherwise moving body, too.

could be a couple things but like George said..air is the most common reason. a depth change could also do it.

the "jig" is such a mystical thing to most fishermen, but its really not a lot different than soft plastics, in fact very similiar, you just have a lot less time to detect the bite and then set the hook. The actual bite varies just as much as it does on a soft plastic from a pretty hard thump to a tiny tick...just watch the line. The jig bite is not so sensitive that its incapable of being felt. Bass will aggressively attack crawfish, trying to catch them before they can scoot away and will attack a jig in the same way. Don't psyche yourself out over a jig...its not a difficult thing to fish. Trust in your equipment and be in tune..you'll catch fish on a jig. Feel for weight, mushiness when you pull, and then set the hook....you'll do fine.