schplurg

So sorry, Tom.

If that was a realistic day of fishing for me I'd start a new hobby, or slit my throat maybe! Many games these days are torture to me. Grinding for coins, bombarded with requests to buy stupid clothing for your character, or better golf clubs, or gas for the car - for chrissakes I play(ed) vids to ESCAPE that crap!!! I feel sorry for kids who want to play because the technology is there to make some truly groundbreaking stuff but half the games budget goes to figuring out how to soak the customers. Okay, so I ran the game for 10 "game days". I put in 50 or so fish and let them go. The entire lake now has spots for cover, shallows, and food/baitballs. No bad surprises at least. The fish all found their favorite spots (closest) and have pretty much stuck to those areas, going to and from each type of location. They can "free swim" at night, so they do have a chance to relocate. It's kind of cool just watching them. They get hungry and will eat. Right now I have what I figure are "bait balls" and the fish just finds the closest one for now and "eats". Later they will find food wherever, a bit here and there, as well as bait balls. Bait balls are mainly for the anglers to see. So they have a very simple routine now, but it all works which is good news. Shallow water in the morning, cover during the day (docks or deep water), shallow again at evening, then free swim all night, and they eat whenever hungry enough. Like I said, basic, but they follow the sun patterns fine and do everything right so far. And they all do the same thing within a few minutes of each other, so there is no variation yet. I need to make sure they do what I want before I mess with that. I think my fish will probably be more complicated and intelligent than a real one by the time I'm done.

Hey thanks for the feedback! I did get the moon to work well enough, but it will not be a factor in the game for now. I think. Just for looks and to cast (not that cast) a little light. I sped up time and let it run while I slept and a whole year in-game passed without the sun or moon exploding or getting lost in space, so that's good. This project is big, at least the way I am designing it. I need to rethink some of this. Tried to work on casting a lure but it was late last night. It ended up shooting it about 2 miles away and the line got all weird. I will make it a simple mouse click for now - click where you want to cast and bait just appears there. One cool thing is that the bait that I have sinks slowly, and as the line moves it can begin to rise, think lipless crank. it pulls the line down with it. So the physics are there for realistic retrieving. The line looks like a bunch of PVC pipes linked together, but that'll change. I should post a pic of that haha. Added pic. So this is my quickie bass model chasing what will later look like a crank bait. It gives off a "vibration" that bass can sense if in range. The "fishing line" is just a few pieces of whatever linked together with invisible joints. It works for now. This view is from underwater, you can see some of the fishing line is out of the water (top of pic). The bait is pulled through the water from the top end of the line. The crank doesn't wiggle yet. I can't cast this lure, it just moves left to right through the water endlessly. I have to place the fish in its path to test it for now. I want to be able to fish in the game soon. Once I do I may change my approach to the rest, and also a game needs to be fun and usable at some point just to keep me going. Plus I can let you guys try it that way. I'm thinking about playing with a bait today. As of now the fish will strike it every time if it's close enough (see pic above). I need to change that and play with the fish "AI" so he won't eat sometimes. Maybe put a dozen of these fish in a spot and see how they all react. I also need it so 19 fish don't go after the bait at the same time. Or maybe not haha. Maybe once in a very blue moon a fish will jump into your boat just for fun? Random easter-egg thought. I may start with it's hunger attribute. If hunger reaches a certain level between 1 and 10 he will want to feed. But I don't always want every fish to feed at the same level, or even when it reaches its own hunger threshold. Maybe the fish is comfortable where it is and can wait awhile? Maybe it's spooked, has a headache, I dunno. Waiting for the sun to get lower so it feels safe ("safe" is another fish attribute). All these things need to be considered. I do already have a way for a fish to have a main mission (find food, find shallows, attack lure, hold ground, go to beds) and be able to deviate if something else comes up, then return to the mission. Like if a fish wants cooler water, it may head that way as its main mission, but might stop and do something else that comes up along the way, like have a beer, then continue. So I want a fish to be hungry yet still not look for food immediately every single time. Stuff like that will make the game more realistic, I think, as fish don't all spawn at the same time, or eat at the same time, etc. Got to mix it up. Finally, in BPS: The Strike game, you have an underwater camera. I don't want that in my game, but for now I will use it so we can all see what's going on under there. Maybe I can use one for instant replays later but not during fishing. I DO need a way for you to tell how deep your bait is to some degree at least, and if it's action is good/reeling fast enough. It's hard without the feel of a rod in your hand. I have a few ideas. Anyways, in that game I can see how the fish react and I want this to be better. It's not bad. One thing I want that that game doesn't have is a realistic environment with laydowns, pads, and other things. And I don't want random fish. In other words the pond may have 5 DD bass, and that's all there is - 5. You won't catch a DB if they aren't where you are. There will be no random number deciding the weight of what you catch. What bites your line is what you get.

Make colorblindness work for you. If fish see a pink worm on a green polka-dot jig they might get curious and go for it! All the so-called normal sighted people have it wrong. I'm a bit colorblind but it doesn't affect me that much. I can tell one plastic from another. I don't know the color name of some things but I just don't care. If you don't know the exact color maybe it doesn't matter. "Hey hand me that yellow crank" "It's chartreuse!" "Okay then hand me the yellow/greenish looking crank I keep catching fish with" I only carry pumpkins, blues/blacks, chartreuse (or is it yellow), white mainly anyways so I could be totally colorblind and still know what I'm grabbing. Seems like you could get away with just labeling a few baits that you mix up rather than all of them maybe.

Cool two new threads on new crankbaits with cool sales jargon So balso creates different vibrations than plastic? Says they are balsa on the BPS site, not plastic. David Fritts keeps the pressure on sulking bass with the Berkley® Frittside Crankbait, a flat-sided balsa plug with a tight, silent wiggle. Anyways, so a claim is made that balsa creates different vibrations than plastic. Do bass prefer the balsa vibrations? Once it is clear-coated I doubt there would be any difference. Fish must be really smart. Hmm not sure which gimmick I like better, this one or Matt and Tim's "weight transfer system" crank with "aggressive hunting ability" Just having a little fun today. I've only been fishing a couple years but I've never seen so much hype and BS with products as I do in this industry.

I'm glad I grew up when people still played outside and video games were actually fun.

Not sure I want to include fake money in the game at all. I really don't think I want to limit the fishing in any way. Maybe you can unlock stuff but I'm mainly interested in the fishing. Simulation over game. I haven't thought that far ahead much though. Not at all come to think of it. I'm mainly in the "can I do this and should I bother to" phase :-D Often, grinding for gear makes me quit a game. Adding competitions on a level playing field could add replayability. Maybe different classes based on skill. Maybe tours could be earned, but again, too far ahead for now. The moon looks like it will be fairly easy. It's hard to test stuff that occurs over many days, like a moon phase. I'm making everything so it can go super-fast for testing! Thanks for all the comments, they are all excellent! I really appreciate it!

I think I'm looking primarily for bass behavior outside the boards actually. But I want to use discussion here to apply it the right way. Not sure what I mean really - just general input from fishermen I guess. You're right though that anecdotal evidence is not going to help as much as science with a lot of this. Like in the other thread someone mentioned a lot of things to consider, such as how hard the fight is and not making it too ridiculous, and other game play stuff. Once I can upload a demo then feedback will be much more important. If it's too easy or hard, etc. Making a thread also puts in on the public record which will motivate me to keep working on it I think. Right now I'm not fishing in real life, but I will be soon! Maybe some good things to do would be to ask everyone what they would like to see or experience. Do people have the patience to play a realistic game, for instance? What do you like or dislike about fishing games, or games in general? Some options: - to snag or not to snag? I can make it snag-proof, or realistic or in between. I already have a fishing line (more like a fat rope) that drags a lure and will go over docks and solid objects like a real lure without a hook. - simulated single player tournaments, or even online? Some day... - I could add an easy mode maybe if people get bored and need some action (boooo!). - electronics. Spotlock baby! - you can drive a boat or hike shore, but I think it would be cool to simply point to a spot on a map and get there instantly too. - Kayaks, canoes, tubes (maybe after my first million?). - Baits to include - who knows! One cool thing is that there are a lot of simulated water systems that people have developed that I can put in the game. I don't have to make that myself. Ones I've seen have clarity adjustments(!!!!), 3D ripples, waves, refraction, reflection, cool stuff to make it look real. I want water clarity for bedfishing and well for everything else too. There are also premade environments that can give me a head start - premade trees, textures, bushes, sun rays, weather systems. For now I'm doing my own sun and sky but there are some beautiful options I can get later that will make it much better. I can only do so much myself, especially graphics. I made a few trees but they aren't real enough for me. Fine for now though. One difficult part is I need everything in place before I can really finish the bass behavior. I need docks, trees, structure, cover, rocks, grass, trees, bait fish, freakin need to basically create the entire Earth just to get this going! I at least need small portions of all of this for testing. I just now got the sun to revolve around the world (ya in my world we are the center of the universe). Even the simplest things can be a pain in the rear. In game design, if you think a project should take 6 months, add on another 12 to be realistic ETA: Yes the feel of it being too hard or just totally random must be avoided, and that will be the biggest challenge. Well, one of the many biggest Emulators! You can play any old game you want if you go that route. Now that I have the sun working I think I'll go for the moon. I suck at math so this stuff is so fun for me! I think if I do it right I can make my sun light source actually illuminate the moon without having to fake the different phases. I hope so.

I think I prefer to see it before it gets away. Sometimes a small fish feels big. That's probably where a lot of the "it was a lunker" stories come from. I lost a maybe 28 inch catfish right next to shore. Was going for stripers. He rolled over in 1 foot of water just before my buddy could reach him. Devastated. Would have been my biggest fish to date. But I'm glad I got to see it. I KNOW how big it was, no mystery. It's a bummer but it's also motivating to me.

First of all, I've been discussing this a bit in this other thread, the Fake Amazon Reviews one. Oh cool it put up the screenshot! Anyways, I don't know if this is the correct sub-forum. My intent with this thread is to mainly discuss fish behavior and how I can apply it to a realistic fishing simulator that we all can play as it's being designed. I think feedback from the BR community would be awesome. Usually when I design a game I hang out at gaming forums. Not this time! For those who play video games, I am sick of games trying to steal my money. I don't design games that way. In short, video games suck now, by and large. I'm old school - I only want to buy your game once dude! And these days, not even that most of the time. I've played Bass Pro Shops: The Strike and think it's "okay", but I want much better. Better looking, better fishing areas (pads, grass, beds, laydowns, everything), better and more realistic fishing, and easy and enjoyable to control and play, especially for non-gamers. And no underwater cameras. My goals for the game I want it to be beautiful. I want people who hate video games to turn on the game just to see the peaceful cove, or the still waters and birds chirping and frogs croaking. A swirl from a bass or a boil of bait fish. I want people to be able to apply their real fishing knowledge to catch fish in the game. I want it to be enjoyable, peaceful, and realistic. I want realistic casting, reeling, fighting, bait actions, but most of all, fish behavior. Here is an older game I designed just to show I'm serious: The graphics aren't very good in some parts of the above game. I'm thinking someone else can do graphics at some point. But I can do good enough to make working demos we can all play. I really don't know what I expect from people here, I'm just seeing if there's any interest I guess. I've already had some great and indepth advice in the other thread. Bass Behavior The main thing that will make the game realistic is bass behavior. Incorporating sun angle and brightness, weather, time of year - you know, all the stuff we talk about here every day - will all affect where bass will be, and if they will bite. And maybe they won't be where you expect (like real life). For programming the fish "AI" I have variables for fish behavior - you know like a football game where you have attributes for your players like speed, stamina, aggression, strength - well the fish have them too. Speed, age, sex, aggression, hunger, fear, schooling tendency, maybe even a favorite color or style of food. Plus much more. Right now I have a bass that will swim around, change its behavior at certain times of day, avoid obstacles and even react to a vibrating bait like a crank. It's all very very basic, but it works as it should so far. No big problems. I think I'll keep this first post "short". If anyone is interested please read any relevant posts from the thread I mentioned above to get caught up on what's going on here. Or not, doesn't matter really Finally, I have no idea what I will do with the game. I've made free games and I've made two commercial ones. I want to make it playable for everyone here as it is designed. I'm thinking I'll make a basic sim, then if it seems good I will build a game around it. Well not really a game...a sim! Both. I am no longer in the gaming industry, and when I was I worked alone. I don't really play games anymore but I would play this. Electronic Arts agreed to publish my last game and I signed a deal with them, but I cancelled it because I didn't like what they wanted me to do to monetize it. Probably why this game made zilch but oh well. That experience really turned me off to video games. Some goals with the game: - use real fishing knowledge to catch fish. - make it look gorgeous. I want it to look so awesome that people will pull their kayak into their living room to play in on the big screen TV! Maybe there will be yaks in the game? - fun for non-gamers and old dudes and women. - fun realistic casting, retrieving, fights, and nice looking fish. - no in-app purchases. Maybe if one day I add like a 5 lake expansion pack to the game, but no BS like paying real money for lures, gas, broken line or anything like that. So freaking stupid. I actually have no idea what I want to do with it when completed. Right now I have one big pond. It is somewhat unrealistic because it has parts that are 30 feet deep, but I need a good yet small testing ground with everything in it - deep water, shallows, docks, structure etc. One more thing - I am pretty new to bass fishing so I don't have all the answers - well nobody does, but especially me! I learn fast though and I have done a lot of studying for this game, not to mention for fishing. Okay that's enough for now! If anyone is interested let me know, maybe this will be an interesting thread.

People like to play on handheld but I don't know that a) this game would be playable, and b) it would provide a good fishing experience - my opinion. The trees and lake/environment will be realistic and require a lot of power, and I will most likely have someone else do that work. I can make a working prototype that we all can play (yes I will upload demos as I go), and if it gets serious I'll call in some people who do better graphics than I do, probably. I think I'm going to work on the fishing part now for a bit, just to see what other obstacles that will bring. If I want to actually finish this game, and I think most games people start never get finished, I need to keep it from getting out of control and too big. Start with something simple and see if it works, then expand. I mean I could have the most realistic environment ever created and still have a game that sucks. It's all about user experience, not necessarily reality. It has to seem real. So there will be compromise in that regard. As for the time, it can be accelerated or slowed or maybe even stopped. I'm most likely going to have to ditch the real-time environment thing and go with something more feasible. Or maybe I can run a sim for a month, record certain aspects of that, then apply it to the game. Like design the fish, let them swim for a few weeks (a year in the game maybe) and track their movements, then apply that data. Ya I think I'll work on the fishing/above water stuff for now and see if I really need to get that crazy. Most games these days are designed to pick money out of your pockets, not to be realistic or exceptional. As much thought goes into monetization as in game design. In fact, many games are designed around a money system. It sucks and has ruined gaming, at least for me. Games suck now, especially mobile. Sadly, I have found zero joy in searching for and playing any mobile games lately. It's a terrible experience. So much crap. Oh and they track and sell your info too. Yay. My games do not and will not be designed to screw the player in any way. I'm old school. If I want to nickel and dime people I'll open an arcade. It's stupid how we started out paying per game in arcades long ago, then got home consoles so we don't need to do that anymore, and now we are back to pay-to-play again! What a world. Thank all the cheap people who want free everything. People actually complain about paying a dollar for a game. Wow. Now some want free income for all! It's a bad trend. But I digress... A game for anglers designed by an angler(s), a cheap angler who buys cheap bait, cheap video games and has had had it with everyone else's BS. "I've had all I can stand I can't stands no more!!!" Okay I better start another thread, sorry for hijacking this one. Amazon reviews - I looked at action cams the other day - why even bother. It's bad. Ya I can sort out the BS but man what a pain. I just need the specs mostly anyways.

I agree with pretty much everything you said!!! I don't know if I can comment on all of it. I'm tired. Fish will not always be where we think they should be in the game. There will be randomness in that, however I'm trying to make it less "random". For instance, in real life, a bass may go off an expected path, but for a reason, not just randomness. I assume So each fish will have many traits which will cause it to do things different than other fish. Some will tend to school more than others, spawn late, not spawn. And I don't know enough about their behavior, especially first-hand to do all of this. I read and learn about behavior and that is helping a lot, but there is also the fishing aspect of the game. And really, all the player sees is what's above the water, depending on clarity. So what happens there is everything. What happens below can be whatever needs to be in order to make it SEEM real to the player, even if I have to fake stuff. This is a major rule in game design - fake it if you have to. I mean really I could just cast, run a random number, generator and let that decide if you get a bite. Another random number decides whether or not you get the hook set. There could be no actual fish in the water at all. But that sucks and isn't realistic. Umm...or is it? Fights should be realistic. One key is getting the controls for the rod and reel correct. My ultimate goal would be a wireless Wii type controller with vibration. I have crazier ideas than that but they aren't practical. I use 10 pound mono and have never broke my line (of course I will), so I don't want the key to a fight to be not snapping it. My knots have failed though It shouldn't be too difficult to land a fish because it isn't in real life. I mean I'm a beginner and I land way more that I lose once a fight begins. A strong fish can thrash harder, one with more aggression too. That can be a factor. I'm not sure yet how to do the "fish won't bite just any lure" thing yet. That's on the list though. Everything is, and it's an awful lot! The bait fish thing is something I've thought about. Hard to explain though. I will show signs they are there to the angler, and other food. The Big Problem One huge gigantic pig of an issue is that I want to make a living breathing fishery. I'd love for the fish to grow bigger, migrate from their different spots, some going far distance, most not. But how do you do that when the player turns the game off and on all the time? The lake can only live while the game is running. Most fishing games probably simply roll-the-dice when the game begins. Placing fish where they "should be", and adding some randomness to that as well. I want my fish to have swam there, and maybe eaten some lunch on the way. One way around it would be to run a master game on a server(s) that always runs, simulating the environment and fish. Players start the game and download the current fish data to their own device. No massive multiplayer where you have to sit around with a bunch of dorks messaging each other. But who'd want to play in the dead of winter? You need to be able to play any time of day you want, and any day. So maybe use historical or projected data from the game on the server .....and now I'm a bit full of crap maybe, because that sounds tough But that is the major hurdle. I suppose most games dump a bunch of fishing knowledge into a huge algorithm that spits out fish where they should go. Maybe I'm stupid to not just do it that way, and maybe I'll be forced to. What really matters is what the player sees. Maybe I'm getting too into the whole fish behavior thing. I'm enjoying designing the fish though. Anyways, I now have a clock that runs and can control the sun position. It will, with a few more lines of code, place the sun in a realistic position any time of year (lower in the winter...). So now I can set a date and time and fish any time I want. Except I can't fish yet. I may just jump to that, working on the fishing aspect. Just very basic stuff. I should because I'm not 100% sure I'm going to do this project. I have thought about it for quite awhile though and can envision how to do most of it. Anyways, I'll start a thread soon probably. Oh and thanks for all of the input!

I caught a bullfrog with a frog last summer. I'd post the video link but you can't actually see the strike. The frog jumped out of shallow water vegetation and grabbed it from the air about 3 feet from me (bank fishin). Was barbless at least and barely hooked. I mentioned this in another thread (in case anyone gets deja vu).

Is the bolded bit above actually true?

Hey, if you have the legs for them go for it I guess. Get some 8 inch heels while you're at it!

I do have another "story", my first being catching the bullfrog with a frog. One day fishing the San Joaquin River from the bank I hooked into a striper and then it broke off. About 30 minutes later I caught a striper with a hook just like mine and two inches of line hanging out of its mouth. "Hey buddy, can ya help out a fish here?" I removed both hooks and sent him on his way. Smart fish for finding me that second time

Fake review ^^^! Just kidding! Ya they can make some good stuff for the price. I'm not trying to knock the product itself. Like I said the rod stand is cool. I wouldn't pay $40 for it though. I would imagine the rods and reels are the same parts found on any other cheap combos. Aw man I have to go to work today. I wanted to go fishing yesterday but the lakes here suck on a good day. During winter? Forget it!

I'm thinking about spray painting a few cheap Walmart baits that I have duplicates of.

Really, how many do y'all lose? I can't remember losing a single one last year. I have a bag of half-destroyed ones that I use for trailers and that bag is getting too big. Use Gummy Worms if you want. I'd imagine those disintegrate. Great colors too and fish dentists will thank you Sorry, but living in California is all about what you can NOT do and I've had more than enough of that. Here, even coffee causes cancer, so I couldn't give a crap less what the guv'mnt has to say about what, if anything, is hurting the fish. Here, we drain reservoirs so we can sell the water down south for private profit. Here, we want to build 40 foot tall tunnels beneath the Delta to divert water, again for private profit. Who again is hurting the fish? Not me and not you. Most of the garbage I find in and around water bodies has nothing to do with bait. Ban beer bottles and cans, dirty diapers, take-out food boxes and Big Gulp cups if you wanna save the waterways and fish from trash. Go after the poachers that return every time they are ticketed - well the ones that are actually caught. Start giving a crap about that maybe? Go after the people who you know darn well are fishing illegally. We all know who they are and can spot them from the other side of the lake. They're the ones taking live bait to the place I fish that bans live bait. They are the ones not going barbless when the law requires it. They are the ones taking home bags of fish while leaving their own bags of Shrimp Chips and fast food on shore. They are the ones who disappears during the few times that DFW actually show up to check us out. A lot of things hurt our fisheries and most of them are not plastic worms. Anglers do not shoulder the blame so don't let them try to put it on us. Plastic worms - give me a break. Maybe this rant was a bit too much for the topic haha, oh well. I'm tired of being told what to do by a bunch of - nevermind.

Caught from shore: Zoom Super Fluke T-Rigged Eagle Claw 4/0 WG with 10 pound mono 5 1/4 pound LMB (My PB) Walmart Crank Bait, 10 pound mono 4 3/4 pound LMB. Same bank spot as above (PB runner up)

I caught a bullfrog on a frog a few months ago. Only thing I've ever hooked with one, so far. Thankfully it was barbless.

I think it's awesome that you have a photo for almost everything you say on this forum! Or maybe you're always on the boat with a camera ready to go while reading the forum?

You may be able to read some of the values/variables I have for the fish on the right of the image. The blocks at the bottom near the dock are for path-finding testing. Just thought I'd post a pic to show I'm actually doing this Also nothing you see would ever be good enough to be seen in a finished game.

I figure some people might be inclined to try during the winter months. I've played "BPS The Strike" and it's "okay". There are a lot of others but I've never tried most. I just doubt/know they aren't what I want. My goals with such a game would be (so far): In a nutshell: I want people to be able to apply their fishing knowledge and catch bass in a beautiful and realistic video game. - realistic fish behavior. Realistic fishing. No underwater camera help, though I'd like people to be able to watch the fish maybe. Sometimes I copy/paste twenty of my fish into the scene and watch them swim around. Kinda cool! - beautiful settings that make you want to turn on the game even if you never play. I want you to feel like you are there. It's all about atmosphere. The game may not run on mobile because I want it to look jaw-dropping. Not sure. - actual fish in the water swimming around doing fish stuff. If it's spawning time you may see them on beds, or the males preparing the bed (ignoring your baits!). If the conditions are right you may see a few under a dock. You'll see a swirl near the weeds maybe. - They will bite when a bait is close enough, or vibrating enough, and if they are hungry or irritated enough, etc. - You can fish the bank or from a rowboat, bass boat, yak or tube ("maybe" on some of these if I get serious enough). Full access to the water. - No snags? Not sure. Maybe very difficult to snag? But there will be cover and structure to locate and fish around. Trees, stumps, pads, - realistic weather, time, sun position throughout the year. Moon too. What I have now... - a large pond with a little bit of everything. Shallows, coves, 30 feet deep in spots, docks, areas that would serve to spawn. You can walk around it and on the water for now - a fish that can swim, avoid obstacles, reach a destination and hold near that position, not float away out of the game into the sky, free swim. It also reads the sun angle. I have it programmed now to go to shallow water morning and evenings just as a test, then find cover from a couple of available docks during the day, or free swim. - a sun that acts like a sun. It can do shorter (winter) days, and at different angles. Objects create shadows. - I have a rudimentary way of figuring out (not realistically really) what temp the water should be at different depths using my very VERY basic "knowledge" of how temps change through the thermocline and the other layers. The fish can analyze the temp but it does not act on it yet. I'm trying to determine how to make the water temps react (sloooowly) to air temps. I kinda know how but I haven't tried it yet. This probably sounds a lot better than it really is, and most of it is very basic. Now, I've only been learning about bass fishing for less than two years so I can only get so far with this on my own (cough Tom cough Help cough ). I've learned a lot, but pfft!!! So that's why I've thought about mentioning it here. This post is too long and off topic, so I'll think about starting a new one. May as well I guess. If it dies it dies. I don't want to start something I won't finish, but I've been playing with this for a month or so, so it looks like I'm kinda serious about it.

How could I forget lipless cranks from shore? I didn't lose a lot but my cast to loss ratio is close to 1:1 the few times I tried this, I'm sure. "Hey bro can you grab me a lipless outta my pack? I'm about to cast this one"