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Fish4bigfish

Subliminal structure fishing?

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I am blown away how hard it is to research this type of structure! Everybody talks about points, flats etc. Can anybody help me? I think I understand that big fish will sometimes hold on structure relating to the main structure but not on it? Is this correct? So if I am fishing a main point that stretches out into deep water and I find a small rock pile 20 feet off of that point. That would be the structure I want to spend time working. Thanks for any help. I am trying to wrap my head around this.

I have a knack for big fish. I have caught several fish this year in the 5 to 8 lb range. I want to get better.

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Yes fish it definitely, but don't spend your whole time working that one subliminal structure, work the main point as well. One of my favorite baits to throw around points are Chatterbaits and T rigged craws.

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Whenever you find cover, or a change in bottom composition on or near a piece of structure take your time probing it with a couple of different presentations.  Regardless of what you consider a small rock pile to be, yes, it's worth giving serious consideration to. This goes for subtle saddles or mini points or indentations along the point.

The less frequent those changes or cover occur and the closer they are to the main structural break, the better the chances that they will hold multiple fish.

Just as an example, a dock thirty feet from a drop off has good potential. If it's the only dock around, that potential increases.

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If you haven't read Bill Murphys book In Pursuit of Giant Bass you should.

I don't post pictures or sketches and probably should learn to do it a picture is worth a thousand words.

The term Isolated structure doesn't mean the isolated structure element is separated from the main structure. When you look at a mountain ridge running from a high area down towards a lower elevation the ridge isn't a continuos smooth piece of land. The ridge would be a point underwater and all the humps, boulders, saddles, gullies, stumps, rocky areas, clay areas, gravel areas are present above water and below the water. Everyone of those structure elements are considered "isolated structure" that make up the ridge or point.

When you study a topo elevation map in 1 foot detailed elevation changes the only element you will see is elevation changes. Rock piles, stumps, boulders are not shown. Saddles and small flat areas, gullies, road beds, sometimes fence rows and building foundations are changes of evelation and usually detailed on a good topo map and are considered "isolated structure" elements.

Bass like these isolated structure elements to use as underwater ambush areas that either house prey or funnel prey into those spots, if the depth is where bass are located.

Hope This paints a picture for you and clarifies the subject.

Tom

 

 

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2 hours ago, WRB said:

If you haven't read Bill Murphys book In Pursuit of Giant Bass you should.

I don't post pictures or sketches and probably should learn to do it a picture is worth a thousand words.

The term Isolated structure doesn't mean the isolated structure element is separated from the main structure. When you look at a mountain ridge running from a high area down towards a lower elevation the ridge isn't a continuos smooth piece of land. The ridge would be a point underwater and all the humps, boulders, saddles, gullies, stumps, rocky areas, clay areas, gravel areas are present above water and below the water. Everyone of those structure elements are considered "isolated structure" that make up the ridge or point.

When you study a topo elevation map in 1 foot detailed elevation changes the only element you will see is elevation changes. Rock piles, stumps, boulders are not shown. Saddles and small flat areas, gullies, road beds, sometimes fence rows and building foundations are changes of evelation and usually detailed on a good topo map and are considered "isolated structure" elements.

Bass like these isolated structure elements to use as underwater ambush areas that either house prey or funnel prey into those spots, if the depth is where bass are located.

Hope This paints a picture for you and clarifies the subject.

Tom

 

 

Actually it is this book that has me asking these questions.

Thank you I think I'm understanding you

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I think the reason that a subject like this gets so convoluted is that many anglers have different terms for the same thing.  I try to stay to the Buck Perry school of thought as it keeps things simple by clearly defining  each term.   

For example Buck Perry would not consider a small pile of rocks structure, it would be considered a break.

If you are not speaking the same language it only makes matters more confusing.

 

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I  would fish the rock pile  and the point and keep coming back , especially if fish are shown on it .

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Also, when you do catch one, make sure you make a note of the exact area where you caught it, maybe even throw a marker buoy over there. There will often be more in the same area. 

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Let use another comparison. Your patio surface is hard concrete structure, where the lawn meets the concrete could be called an edge or a break, the patio chair would be isolated structure.

Subliminal structure that Murhpy mentions could be the edge where the lawn meets the concrete, different types of structure creating a break like gravel creating an edge on clay.

Tom

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Thank you tom!

49 minutes ago, WRB said:

Let use another comparison. Your patio surface is hard concrete structure, where the lawn meets the concrete could be called an edge or a break, the patio chair would be isolated structure.

Subliminal structure that Murhpy mentions could be the edge where the lawn meets the concrete, different types of structure creating a break like gravel creating an edge on clay.

Tom

We are talking the same language! This post wasn't about points or basic structure vs cover. I appreciate your time! I am looking for spots to double anchor and spend some time. 

Also will big bass suspend over these bottom changes. I caught a 8 lb bass this summer, suspended 15 feet off the bottom in 42 fow. I can't figure out why that fish was there. 

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37 minutes ago, Fish4bigfish said:

I caught a 8 lb bass this summer, suspended 15 feet off the bottom in 42 fow. I can't figure out why that fish was there. 

Congrats on the nice bass ~

More important to me, if you're willing to share is . . .  How (Technique / Bait) & why were you fishing 15 feet off the bottom in 42 feet of water ?

That's not a zone many bass anglers routinely target - mostly because unless you're trolling or fishing vertically - it's tough to repeat.

A-Jay

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Breakline: A breakline can have more than one meaning. It can be another word for a drop-off/ledge, or a point of any quick change in depth. It can also be used to describe the edge of a vegetation line. For example, a "weed break" is the area of the weed bed where the weeds meet up with open water; or, where one type of weed meets up with another. The last example happens when bottom composition changes, as different weeds prefer different types of bottom composition. In rocky impoundments, a breakline can also describe a line where rock meets mud, pea gravel, etc. In other words, the most correct definition for a breakline is "Any distinct line that is made by cover or structure which leads to an abrupt change in bottom depth, composition, or cover transition".

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2 hours ago, Fish4bigfish said:

Thank you tom!

We are talking the same language! This post wasn't about points or basic structure vs cover. I appreciate your time! I am looking for spots to double anchor and spend some time. 

Also will big bass suspend over these bottom changes. I caught a 8 lb bass this summer, suspended 15 feet off the bottom in 42 fow. I can't figure out why that fish was there. 

There is another break called a thermal break in  salt water fishing. Thermal breaks are not necessarly thermoclines, the can be vertical where 2 walls of different temperature water come together, both with good DO levels. This can happen in fresh water lakes when river water meets lake water or from current creating a up welling. Big bass often suspend near underwater island/ humps to take advantage of pelagic prey ( trout for example) using thermal breaks. This may answer why your 8 lb bass was where it was and active feeding.

The SD trophy bass anglers double anchored for 2 reasons, to position the boat quietly and so the boat could be repositioned by trolleying the anchored boat along the double anchor lines. Today bass anglers use power poles, can't see Murphy doing that with his 15' aluminum boat.

If you go back and study Bills sketches and a few photos, he points out the type of structure he fished and illustrated how he thought the bass moved into and out of those areas. Bill would fish a draw with a few bushes and rocks where he knew big bass would located and stay there for hours either bait fishing or lure fishing, very patient angler. I can't do that anymore, still tend to saturate good areas using lures, but not sun up to sun down anymore.

Good luck, catch giant bass!

Tom

 

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18 hours ago, Fish4bigfish said:

Actually it is this book that has me asking these questions.

 

1 hour ago, Fish4bigfish said:

This post wasn't about points or basic structure vs cover. I am looking for spots to double anchor and spend some time. 

Also will big bass suspend over these bottom changes. I caught a 8 lb bass this summer, suspended 15 feet off the bottom in 42 fow. I can't figure out why that fish was there. 

What most everyone tends to overlook when talking about Bill Murphy's book is that it was produced and edited by Paul Prorok. For those that don't know, Paul was one of the original Chicago/Milwaukee area spoonpluggers that both fished and learned around the likes of John Buoy, Don Nichols, Vic Saunders, Carl Malz and Terry O'Malley, all men who personally fished with Buck Perry extensively. Anyone who has read and understands Buck's work (including his book, Spoonplugging: Your Guide to Lunker Catches) will immediately identify with most everything written in Bill's book. It's basically a spoonplugging lesson written in much more easily digestible language. Every single picture showing double anchoring positions and trolling passes should be immediately recognizable as what Buck termed "structure situations." I could spend all night pointing out spoonplugging references and similarities in the two books. 

On the subliminal spots, Bill/Paul wrote:

Quote

"Electronically speaking, the best subliminal areas appear void of life, but when you acquire the ability to recognize these spots the way fish see them and deliberately fish subliminal areas simply because of their relationship with other structural elements, you'll have uncovered a hidden insight into the sport of trophy bass fishing and be light years ahead of the competition." 

On the same subject, Buck wrote:

Quote

"You may note a map of a lake may not show any well-defined structure, breaks, or breaklines or deep water in parts of the water and probably your depth sounder will not indicate any either. But smaller features not shown on the map, and things you can't see on the depth meter, could look like a "mountain" to a fish and also to your lures."

-T9

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2 hours ago, A-Jay said:

Congrats on the nice bass ~

More important to me, if you're willing to share is . . .  How (Technique / Bait) & why were you fishing 15 feet off the bottom in 42 feet of water ?

That's not a zone many bass anglers routinely target - mostly because unless you're trolling or fishing vertically - it's tough to repeat.

A-Jay

Drop shot 

Sometimes I just cast out to deep water lol 

But if I catch something I investigate the area

I always count my lure down

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There isn't any presentation that out fishes good luck. Some will debate that statement and say skill out fishes good luck. Skill landed that big bass.

My late friend Bob caught his PB 14 lb bass on a swim bait. Bob noticed a loop down in his spool and decided to make a long cast out into no mans land of deep water so he could pull out the loop. Bob pulled out the loop and wound the line back onto the reel until he felt the lure snagged and pulled hard to free it, the bass had swimbait and fought back. This is good luck, Bob abmited he would have never made that cast out into that deep water when he did, other than to get the loop out.

My theory on bass suspended off shore in deep water is the bass may have moved out there when your boat came near where they were located. One reason sitting quietly (anchored or not) allows bass the time to return to the area if they don't detect your presence. 

Tom

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