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fishesneb

Making spinnerbaits run correctly

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You may wanna post a picture of what your talking about...

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16 hours ago, fishesneb said:

I have some spinnerbaits where the hook runs underneath of the skirt during the retrieve. Is there a way to fix this?

Linda Blair style?

Spinnerbaits can run to one side or the other, even spin on it's axis in extreme cases, but what you are describing is physically impossible. Spinnerbaits run off because the wire is bent to one side, the skirt (or trailer if present) is off center, the head is damaged, or loose from the wire, or it's blades are too large for it's weight.

 

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If you can't post a photo and I understand because I don't, add a make and type of spinnerbait you are having trouble with.

Tom

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I think what he means is what you see on the Z-Man spinnerbait when seen on underwater video. The head is actually riding on like a 45 degree angle while the skirt strands are flowing back perfectly level. When this happens the hook is under the skirt and if this is the case you can't do much to fix it as it is a design problem. I'll see if this video shows up and if it does just fast forward to the 1:30 mark and you'll see what I think he is talking about.

 

 

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Every double bladed single arm spinner bait runs like the vedio posted, the blades are inline with the line tie. The ZMan skirt is bouyant and tends to rise up more then silicone skirt.

Tom

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31 minutes ago, WRB said:

Every double bladed single arm spinner bait runs like the vedio posted, the blades are inline with the line tie. The ZMan skirt is bouyant and tends to rise up more then silicone skirt.

Tom

Yes, every spinnerbait runs like but the Z-Man has a channel to keep the bait from rolling over which also makes it lean back a little more. They use regular silicone skirting, nothing different than other manufacturers use.

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The spinnerbait is upside down during the retrieve ?

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4 hours ago, WRB said:

Every double bladed single arm spinner bait runs like the vedio posted, the blades are inline with the line tie. The ZMan skirt is bouyant and tends to rise up more then silicone skirt.

Tom

I've never had a spinnerbait run like that. Not even my $1 spinnerbaits. Probably has to do with the way the wire is bent right after it comes out of the head.

23 hours ago, fishesneb said:

I have some spinnerbaits where the hook runs underneath of the skirt during the retrieve. Is there a way to fix this?

Probably has to do with how the wire is bent right after it comes out of the head. I doubt something like that can be adjusted without weakening the wire.

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2 hours ago, Marcus Y. said:

I've never had a spinnerbait run like that. Not even my $1 spinnerbaits. Probably has to do with the way the wire is bent right after it comes out of the head.

Probably has to do with how the wire is bent right after it comes out of the head. I doubt something like that can be adjusted without weakening the wire.

How do you think a spinnerbait runs, like your avatar? The spinnerbait head lead and heavier then everything else and wants to sink down acting like a keel, the blades start turning resisting the forward movement and the head starts to raise up. If the blades apply too much water resistance the spinner bait will surface or rollover, if not it runs head upwards and straight forward with hook and skirt downwards just like the video.

Thinking a spinnerbaits runs through water like it's tied into the line balanced with the blade arm pointing upwards and head arm downwards split evenly may seem logical until it's moving forward underwater. If the upper wire with the blades isn't paraelell to the water surface moving forward the forward blade can't swing around the wire. 

Tom

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20 minutes ago, WRB said:

How do you think a spinnerbait runs? You have a wire through the eye of a hook with lead molded around it, the wire is bent into a V with the line tied to the center of the V, the wire then has 1 or 2 blades attached to end. When you pull the spinnerbait forward what happens? The lead head is heavier then everything else and wants to sink down acting like a keel, the blades start turning resisting the forward movement and the head starts to raise up. If the blades apply too much water resistance the spinner bait will surface or rollover, if not it runs head upwards and straight forward with hook and skirt downwards just like the video.

Tom

That's what I mean. My spinnerbaits will surface or roll. None have ever run with the hook below the skirt at such an angle. 

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Look at your avatar and tell me how the forward willow blade can spin on the clevis moving forward. The blade can only spin 360 degrees around the wire it can't spin forward, the wire must be inline with direction of forward motion.

Tom

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18 minutes ago, WRB said:

Look at your avatar and tell me how the forward willow blade can spin on the clevis moving forward. The blade can only spin 360 degrees around the wire it can't spin forward, the wire must be inline with direction of forward motion.

Tom

That's a great question and maybe someone else can explain it. I'm telling you what I've seen retrieving them through gin clear water. With my regular retrieve speed, they come through the water just like you see in the picture or with the slightest amount of headlift. If I retrieve faster, they rise to the surface or roll on their side. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just giving you my experience.

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12 minutes ago, Marcus Y. said:

That's a great question and maybe someone else can explain it. I'm telling you what I've seen retrieving them through gin clear water. With my regular retrieve speed, they come through the water just like you see in the picture or with the slightest amount of headlift. If I retrieve faster, they rise to the surface or roll on their side. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just giving you my experience.

You see what you to see, if the front blade is rotating the spinnerbait is going through the water like the video, it's physically impossible to do otherwise.

Peace, fish them and enjoy catching bass.

Tom

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I can mod a spinnerbait and fish it so that it comes through the water at a head up, head down, or level. The fish don't care, so it's basically just an exercise in doing it cause I can. Most stock spinnerbaits, and the one in the video in particular are going to run that way out of the pkg.

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13 hours ago, Marcus Y. said:

I've never had a spinnerbait run like that. Not even my $1 spinnerbaits. Probably has to do with the way the wire is bent right after it comes out of the head.

Probably has to do with how the wire is bent right after it comes out of the head. I doubt something like that can be adjusted without weakening the wire.

The reason the Z-Man head is tilted further back than others isn't the bend coming out of the head. If anything, the bend is probably keeping it from tilting even further back. WRB isn't lying to you, they all run that way, you just can't tell when looking straight on or when the bait is 10' away from you. If you had a camera in a pool and made a 20' cast and started reeling, you'd get to see the side view of the bait running and you'd see the tilt. Look at all the spinnerbaits on TW and you'll notice the wires all have slightly different lengths and different angles coming out of the head, it is done to keep a bait from tilting or from leaning. Leaning is the bait laying over to one side or the other, the most common cause of that is blade size combined with speed, reel a bait too fast with larger blades and the torque from those blades will cause the bait to lean to the side. Tilt will always be there because of the fluid dynamics but wire angle and placement plays a roll in how much a bait will tilt. The Z-Man spinnerbaits has an issue with wire placement not the bend. I make some baits with a bend like that, it is there to create a little more durability, they use a shallow angle coming out of the head so they can put that bend in it, it keeps the wire from bending at the nose of the bait when you catch a good fish. The wire placement on that bait is positioned right at the top of the head rather than coming out of the middle, this was probably done to increase the stability by giving the bait a low center of gravity and when combined with the channel really makes it almost impossible to roll or lean to the side but the trade off is that the bait has an exaggerated tilt back. Most spinnerbaits will tilt until the wire with the blades on is facing straight back but if you look at the Z-Man bait it actually tilts to the point that the blade arm is facing slightly down. I believe they wanted a stable bait at all speeds and were not concerned with the tilt as much because it really doesn't hurt the bait that much. I apologize for the long post but I just wanted to make clear that spinnerbaits all have that tilt and you really can't tell unless you can see it from a side view.

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56 minutes ago, smalljaw67 said:

The reason the Z-Man head is tilted further back than others isn't the bend coming out of the head. If anything, the bend is probably keeping it from tilting even further back. WRB isn't lying to you, they all run that way, you just can't tell when looking straight on or when the bait is 10' away from you. If you had a camera in a pool and made a 20' cast and started reeling, you'd get to see the side view of the bait running and you'd see the tilt. Look at all the spinnerbaits on TW and you'll notice the wires all have slightly different lengths and different angles coming out of the head, it is done to keep a bait from tilting or from leaning. Leaning is the bait laying over to one side or the other, the most common cause of that is blade size combined with speed, reel a bait too fast with larger blades and the torque from those blades will cause the bait to lean to the side. Tilt will always be there because of the fluid dynamics but wire angle and placement plays a roll in how much a bait will tilt. The Z-Man spinnerbaits has an issue with wire placement not the bend. I make some baits with a bend like that, it is there to create a little more durability, they use a shallow angle coming out of the head so they can put that bend in it, it keeps the wire from bending at the nose of the bait when you catch a good fish. The wire placement on that bait is positioned right at the top of the head rather than coming out of the middle, this was probably done to increase the stability by giving the bait a low center of gravity and when combined with the channel really makes it almost impossible to roll or lean to the side but the trade off is that the bait has an exaggerated tilt back. Most spinnerbaits will tilt until the wire with the blades on is facing straight back but if you look at the Z-Man bait it actually tilts to the point that the blade arm is facing slightly down. I believe they wanted a stable bait at all speeds and were not concerned with the tilt as much because it really doesn't hurt the bait that much. I apologize for the long post but I just wanted to make clear that spinnerbaits all have that tilt and you really can't tell unless you can see it from a side view.

You both aren't understanding what I'm  saying. I'm talking about the angle of the head and the hook during retrieve. Like the gentleman above you said, my spinnerbaits run level. Look at the first and last spinnerbaits in this video. That's what i mean. The head and hook don't have that steep angle. 

I'm not trying to have a debate on physics, hydrodynamics, etc. I'm talking about the angle of the spinnerbait's body. 

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Here’s shots of all 4 baits from the video. Two spinnerbaits run with the hook hanging low, and two don’t. In all 4 cases, you’ll notice the top wire arm is running at nearly identical angles. This is the physics of all spinnerbaits. The difference in the hooks riding below the skirt or not largely comes down to how it is molded in the factory. If you tore the lead off the head to reveal the connection underneath where the wire arm attaches to the hook eye, you’d see the exact reason why this is occurring. Since that connection angle is basically set once it is embedded in the lead head after pouring, you are fairly limited in your ability to adjust to correct for this without risk of ruining the bait. Here again, different bait brands will allow more or less playing around with wire angles depending on design, but your best bet is to simply not purchase spinnerbaits that are going to run this way if it is an issue in your mind. Pretty easy to tell right in the package which ones will and which ones won’t ... simply hold the bait with the top wire at that near parallel to the floor angle (slight incline) and see where the hook ends up.

 

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Thanks for the explanation Team9nine. Now that I read back into smalljaw67's post, I realize that he said the exact same thing but I got lost in the words. Sorry for any problems I may have created. I'm new to this forum thing and being a visual learner isn't helping.

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The two spinnerbaits I use most often have a bend in the blade arm and run pretty "flat".  (SOB Mini-me and Zorro aggravator - short arm)

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@Team9nine,

Can the OP bend the top arm of his spinnerbaits similar to a buzzbait so that it is parallel to the hook, would that work?  (see OkobojiEagle's comments)

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Now that we have looked at several video's notice the top arm is always inline with the line pull within a few degrees. The back blade rotates on a swivel creating drag, the forward blade rotates on a clevis that swings around the wire like a propeller on a shaft, it can't rotate any other way going through water.

Team9nine has detailed this and explained it as best it can be. 

You can bend the wire where it exits the spinnerbait head so the hook shank is paralell to the upper wire arm, the spinnerbait will run more like you vision it. When you hook a bass the force may bend the wire back  and if you keep bending the wire it will break.

Tom

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1 hour ago, BASS302 said:

@Team9nine,

Can the OP bend the top arm of his spinnerbaits similar to a buzzbait so that it is parallel to the hook, would that work?  (see OkobojiEagle's comments)

You can bend the wires a little bit, but you won’t be able to completely correct the alignment in most cases, and might have speed control issues afterwards (rolling). You’ll likely have to adjust both the lower arm and R-bend tie, and as Tom mentioned, always keeping in mind where the pull and drag forces of the upper arm will end up. Getting the hook and upper arms more or less parallel might be a challenge while still maintaining good running abilities and weedlessness 

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I didn't want to comment until I got to the water and looked for myself.    My homemade spinner baits run a bit above  it still in the skirt.  Maybe the trailer has something to do with it. 

rps20190810_110910.jpg

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When you start bending the lower wire to be more paralell you run the risk of the blades hitting the hook.

Remember a bass see's the blades and strikes the head, skirt and trailer hopefully and not the blades. The bass is usually comming up from underneath the spinnerbait and the head, skirt and hook being lower is an advantage. 

Just because your perception is different then reality doesn't mean you should be modifying a spinnerbait to look like your perception, fish it the way it works best.

Tom

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