Rod fixing/repair advice (top 3 inches of the rod blank)

[WaskaCrank12]

Hello and Happy Holidays to all !

I bought two rods online, thru a private seller - price was great (too good to be true ?, yes it was) - one of the rods was new with tags and in new condition - the second rod looks like it had never been used yet upon unwrapping it I found the top 3 inches of the blank were missing (it's supposed to be a 7'4" rod but it is now a 7'1" - it's missing several inches of the blank plus the tip/top guide) - shame on me for not requesting more pictures, specifically of the top portion of the rod - yet it is what it is.......live and learn.....

So, my questions are: (I have searched and watched some videos yet none seem to address an issue like this)

-Should I just live with it and fish it as a 7'1" rod instead of a 7'4" rod ?

-It would involve more than just buying a new tip and putting it on - I would need approx. a 3 inch piece with the tip/top guide to make it work - Is this realistic ? (ie, finding/buying a 3 inch or so piece with a tip/top guide ?)

-If you have ever had a rod with an issue like this - How did you solve it ? - Did the rod work ok after the fix ?

The rod is an Evergreen Combat Stick - 7'4" Medium/X-Fast

Thank you in advance for your time and expertise.

 

[Mobasser]

If this rod is new, I would contact your seller about a warranty replacement rod.

[padlin]

If it comes down to it… I broke off a tip a few inches down, a shop local to where I was (La Grang, Ga) put a new tip on the stump. It started as a 2 pc 7’ rod and ended up a few inches shorter. Works fine as far as I can tell.  Big difference is that I broke the rod.

[Bass Junke]

No you can't buy a piece of graphite to replace the missing piece with or without a tip top. If you have the missing piece it could be repaired. It sounds like you don't have that though. 

 

There are many post in the rod builders thread on this very topic. Bottom line, if you owned the rod before you broke it you probably won't like it, but since you didn't, who knows. 

[Jigfishn10]

I repaired a 1 pc rod at the top with the same issue and hated it. I feel that the tip of a rod is so important to casting and sensitivity (feel) 

 

I found an old rod that was compromised on the lower section and without getting into specifics, I cut it around half way and did the same with the one I repaired the top section and made a 2 pc with the 2 sections. Really please with the results. I eventually epoxy the 3 pc into a 1 piece. Love it!  

[MickD]

If you end up getting stuck with it, then there is a good chance that it can be made fishable.  Just putting a new tiptop guide on it is not going to do that.  But you can, if you can find the right diameter piece of a graphite rod, repair it.  The last few inches of the rod don't flex that much, so matching the flex is not a big deal. But for some reason I don't fully understand, take that last few inches off and it's not going to feel right.  Here is the link to a procedure that has worked for me multiple times:  https://www.rodbuilding.org/library/repair-oquinn.html  I know it says the repair sleeve should be glass, but I have used graphite and it works just fine, and doesn't look as bad as a thick glass sleeve.  If you want to measure the exact outer diameter of the blank where it was broken off, I might have a piece I could send you.  It would mean doing the repair with the sleeve, adding one guide, and a tiptop guide.  If you want to try this, give me the OD and message me. 

[Jigfishn10]

The specific details I omitted, @MickD just described  

[Dan N]

Missing the last 3” would really change the action of the rod. The few rods I’ve broke tip off, I replace tip eye and donate to one of the kids in the family.

they just are never the same.

[MickD]

4 hours ago, Dan N said:

they just are never the same.

But they can be. . .do the repair per the link.

[Dan N]

I’m not doubting that, I just never tried it. Wish you the best👍🏻

[Jigfishn10]

@MickD, I’m not doubting either, just never liked the results. 
 

I’ve never tried it more than once so I may have not performed the procedure correctly the first time. 

[MickD]

11 hours ago, Jigfishn10 said:

@MickD, I’m not doubting either, just never liked the results. 
 

I’ve never tried it more than once so I may have not performed the procedure correctly the first time. 

It might have to do with seeing that sleeve out there.  Might be playing with the mind.  I broke one of the rods I had made, and when it was new I checked the objective CCS numbers for power and action for the rod.  After I repaired it I checked it again, and the numbers were the same.  It was a fly rod, and it seemed to cast the same.  Since weight is being added way out on the rod, the recovery speed will be affected, and in one case a rod I had made got broken right about where this one we are talking about was broken, about 3 inches from the tip.  The natural frequency went down about 10%.  But the guy who owns it still fishes it and likes it.  You don't want to put both inner and outer sleeves in, and you don't want the sleeves to be any longer than necessary, about 3 inches total length.  I certainly would rather have an unbroken rod, but for a spare, or backup, or to add to one's "quiver," it can work.  And most would not pass a blindfold test between new and repaired.  The contention that it's a waste of time and the rod will not be fishable is an exaggeration, and basically not true.

[Jigfishn10]

Wow @MickD, you certainly have it dialed in. Impressive. 
 

So, how do you check/test the CCS numbers for power and action? This is interesting to me. 

[WaskaCrank12]

Hello @MickD - thank you very much for the link and information. The first example in the article (Number 1) is very similar to the rod issue I have - so the picture and description of how to approach the repair makes sense to me. I have not ever repaired a rod so this will be a new challenge for me. The fact that you have done this with a favorable result gives me the confidence to give it a try. I am not a tournament fisherman and I do own another rod that has similar power/action (medium/x-fast) so if the performance of this broken rod is diminished a bit that is ok. 

I fully appreciate your offer of sending along a rod piece - yet what I will try first is going to a local (30 minutes north of me) tackle shop to see if they may have an appropriately size piece lying around (maybe from old/broken rods) - if they don't have a piece then I will definitely message you with the outer diameter information.

Thank you again for making the time to send along the link and information. Things like this are what make Bass Resource such a fantastic community.

 

[MickD]

8 hours ago, Jigfishn10 said:

So, how do you check/test the CCS numbers for power and action? This is interesting to me. 

https://common-cents.info/  This system was developed many years ago before the devices we have today.  To measure the action angle, a level app on a cell phone works better than fooling around with the angle "chart" in the article.  I check all my blanks before I build.  The action and power numbers do not change with the addition of grips/seats/guides, but the True Natural Frequency does.  TNF is not part of CCS, but is a process recently developed  using android devices to measure how fast the rod recovers from deflection, and how that is affected by the addition of the guides.

[MickD]

As a side note on CCS and the subjective ratings given by manufacturers, we really need an industry wide correlation between CCS numbers and the descriptions.  For example I have two blanks from different manufacturers, both called medium light fast.  One measures a power number (ERN-effective rod number) of 9, Action Angle (the angle of the tip when deflected, a measure of action) 65, and the other is 19.9 ERN and AA of 77.  I have measured medium power blanks that range from less than 15 ERN to 25.9.  I assure you that differences of ERN and AA of 3 are significant and the rods will fish much differently.  This same kind of discrepancy is clearly there with finished rods.  Interestingly, major discrepancies exist even within a single brand's lineup.  Part of it is due to how the blanks/rods are being marketed.  For example, a medium power drop shot blank might have an ERN of 13, a medium power jig rod of 20.  With the growth of interest in baitcasting finesse (BFS) I'm sure we are going to see some rods called medium power that measure less than 10 ERN.  It would make more sense to agree on a correlation, then chose the rod for the technique based on actual numbers, not someone's interpretation of how it will be used.

[Alex from GA]

Publish the diameter of the end of the rod and I will see if I have a fit also and a sleeve that will fit for the repair.  A few of the rods I use several times a week have been repaired and I still catch a fish occasionally.

[WaskaCrank12]

@Alex from GA and @MickD - thank you

I am going to borrow some calipers from a friend this weekend - is it better to measure the outer diameter in mm or inches ? Probably a naive question yet this will be the first time I have encountered a challenge like this. 

In the article @MickD provided it mentioned a specific type of epoxy (RodBond ?) - should I seek that out or are there other more generally available epoxy that I could use ? If I am going to do it I want to do it correctly yet it also seems to make sense to see in there are alternatives as well.

Thank you for your willingness to help - and your time - and your efforts.

 

[MickD]

Decimal inches best, but mm will work.  Get it accurate in thousandths of an inch.  The problem with some hardware store epoxies is that they are too brittle.  Epoxy adhesives designed for rod building will flex with the rod without cracking.  With hardware store epoxies I don't know which will work well and which will not.  For the top few inches, which don't flex that much, many will PROBABLY work.  U40 Quik Bond, a ten minute one works well.  Pro Paste works well but takes longer to cure which is OK, just different.  U40 Rodbond is Trondak's version of a longer pot life epoxy adhesive, also designed for rodbuilding.  While it's inconvenient to order just this on line, they have a long shelf life and are handy to have around for other jobs.  I'm sure there are alternatives available locally, but I just don't know which they are.  Maybe another builder with experience can help. 

[Alex from GA]

I use JBweld quick set in the black and white tubes.  Seems to do a good job. Buy it @ hardware store or Walmart.  It's thick enough not to run and holds fine.

[WaskaCrank12]

@Alex from GA and @MickD

I am going to attempt to post some pictures of the rod break area and outer diameter that I measured with calipers

This is a pic of the outer diameter of the rod (I am not sure if I did this correctly or not)

@Alex from GA and @MickD

[WaskaCrank12]

Hello @Alex from GA and @MickD

this is a picture of an upper rod piece that a neighbor had lying around, this piece is about the same length as my missing piece (he is a Walleye/Musky fisherman but his kids fish and they have a few rods that have been broken) -- so I am not sure if this piece could be used/fused to the rod ? 

[MickD]

It is the inner diameter of the repair sleeve that must match or be close to the outer diameter of the broken blank.  It becomes an outer sleeve that goes over the broken blank on both sides of the fracture for about 1 1/2 inches.  It should work fine in this case, going about right up to the guide.  You do have the end of the rod with the tiptop still on it, right?  Answer this and I'll check to see if I have an appropriate piece, which I probably do.  .068 is the diameter of the blank and not the diameter of the swollen fracture point, right?  

 

You may message me if you prefer.

[Alex from GA]

Use the other end of the calipers for an inside measurement, the part that's pointing up.  No, that piece is way too small.  The sleeve has to go over the broken piece, like Mick says. Caught many fish with this repair.

 

 

[WaskaCrank12]

Hello @Alex from GA

Thank you for the information and for posting the picture of your rod fix. It is excellent to know that you performed the repair and that it is working out well for you !

Yes, I will need to find a "sleeve" piece that has a large enough inner diameter to fit over the current rod and tip piece. 

Did you use the U40 Rod Bond or a different type of epoxy ? Thank you.