5 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

This has been my firsthand experience.

I should also say, not all companies follow that trajectory.  It's typically European and American companies because we're fixated on growth.  Japan is different in that they tend to focus more on quality, and often leave companies be that they've purchased.  A good example of this is Clarion.  When they bought McIntosh Labs, they let them keep doing what they were doing because of their quality and reputation.  If it's working, why mess with it?

14 minutes ago, FloridaFishinFool said:

 

Curious what rod that is?

 

It looks almost the same as one of my old Abu ultra light rods. Same type of reel seat and grip.

@FloridaFishinFool That is an older  5’-6” ultralight BPS Bionic Blade rod, I can’t remember the year I bought it but I have the BPS catalog at home and will edit the year in later on. I also won the same rod in 6’-6” medium power and still have that one as well. I use the Tica reel on that rod with a slip bobber and a 1/32-1/64 ounce jig head with approiately sized Berkley gulp products and I have a blast doing so 😃

1 hour ago, Eric 26 said:

I was waiting for you to add this to the conversation 😉 As a kind gesture that was and is still appreciated I’m the proud second hand owner of @bulldog1935’s Tica Cetus SS500 and I have to add it’s an incredible little reel that is smooth and fun to use ...

you left out remarkable little brute.  

Eric's second-hand Cetus brought the karma of hundreds of seatrout with a few doubles thrown in, including redfish and slot snook.  

21 minutes ago, redmeansdistortion said:

 

 

There's a very good book one can read about this written by Bob Lutz; Car Guys vs Bean Counters.  It details how great companies are founded by enthusiasts and eventually fall from grace when the accountants want to fatten up the balance sheet for investors.  Innovation slows, quality declines, and eventually you're left with a company relying on brand recognition and not the quality they established earlier in their history.  Investors only care about the performance of the company at large; is there a return on investment or not?  They seldom care about the quality of the final product unless it's affecting ROI.  The perfect example of this in the fishing world is none other than Abu Garcia.  Read their history up until now, and it's easy to see their slow downward trajectory between 1984 and 2025.  

 

 

Although I don’t know the book you’re referencing I’ll never forget being a teenager when my father spoke of Lee Iacocca running Dodge or was it Chrysler or was it both into the ground. There were many discussions between my father, grandfather and a few neighbors that I still remember. I can say with somewhat certainty it was around the time my father had a Dodge K-Car as a work vehicle and it was the only car out of 3 he refused to sell to my grandfather when it was time for his company to replace said vehicle.

56 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

you left out remarkable little brute.  

Eric's second-hand Cetus brought the karma of hundreds of seatrout with a few doubles thrown in, including redfish and slot snook.  

Sorry @bulldog1935 I’m out of reactions for the day but even though I know most of the reels back story I don’t want to screw up the details which is why I was and still am happy you jumped in😉

9 hours ago, WRB-2.0 said:

My issue with made in China products has to do with ethics and counterfeiting.

Exactly!  But generally quality is not an issue with the stuff we deal with.  Like here , there are highly competent sources there and highly incompetent ones.  My point was that it's not all black.  There is white and gray, too.

2 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

you left out remarkable little brute.  

Eric's second-hand Cetus brought the karma of hundreds of seatrout with a few doubles thrown in, including redfish and slot snook.  

Nice to see someone else does uplocking!  Especially a knowledgeable person.

On 8/1/2025 at 9:32 AM, PhishLI said:

Haibo from China. They know what they're doing. Just as Doyo stays out of the US market with agreements with Lew's, ABU, Daiwa, and BPS, Haibo stays out too, but you can still get them shipped here through ALIx.

Ark reels are Haibo. So are a lot of Ardent. To be fair, Haibos are really good stuff.

5 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

you left out remarkable little brute.  

Eric's second-hand Cetus brought the karma of hundreds of seatrout with a few doubles thrown in, including redfish and slot snook.  

What rod Bulldog? 

@F14A-B

Probably long out of production 15-y-o Takamiya rockfish.  

I bought a pair for me and my daughter, 7'6" solid tip, and 7'9" tubular tip.  

Loco Move must get lost in translation

Both rods are still on the winter glass minnow plate.  I gave the Cetus to Eric for several reasons, including his friendship, wanting him to enjoy it, along with another friend giving me a new Cetus, and my general swap to Shimano for threadline braid.  

 

If you're looking for a finesse rod in this range, chase the NS Black Hole Dark Horse.  

The upgrade rods are Yamaga Blanks and then EverGreen.  

My buddy Lou fished-through a Major Craft rockfish (exploded the solid tip), moved up to Yamaga Blanks Blue Current III 711, can't pry from his cold fingers, etc.  

My Y/B TZ Nano 83 is untouched for distance-fishing finesse tandem rigs.  

On 8/2/2025 at 7:55 AM, FloridaFishinFool said:

that company hired someone to specifically get them out of China, and now they make rods in USA, and now own their own factory outright down in Mexico where they can oversee quality control and have direct oversight over their products. Some of you know who I am talking about to.

 

Prior to the Fresnillo location coming online, I thought everything was out of Park Falls.  What did they have made in China?  Was it the reels?

I believe it was rods only.

19 hours ago, redmeansdistortion said:

I think something others are missing in their crusade against Chinese manufacturing; they will build as high quality of an item you want, you just have to pay for it.  This can involve more precise manufacturing methods or even a change to a higher quality material.  I say this as somebody relatively fluent in the auto industry, who obtains countless parts from Chinese vendors.  The accountants have predetermined a price point that must be met as agreed upon with the engineers, which means they get what they pay for.  If they want better, they pay for it and pass the cost to the consumer.  Chinese labor isn't any less skilled than we are.  It comes down to money.  For a company pumping out thousands of products, even a difference of a few cents will have an effect on the bottom line. 

 

There's a very good book one can read about this written by Bob Lutz; Car Guys vs Bean Counters.  It details how great companies are founded by enthusiasts and eventually fall from grace when the accountants want to fatten up the balance sheet for investors.  Innovation slows, quality declines, and eventually you're left with a company relying on brand recognition and not the quality they established earlier in their history.  Investors only care about the performance of the company at large; is there a return on investment or not?  They seldom care about the quality of the final product unless it's affecting ROI.  The perfect example of this in the fishing world is none other than Abu Garcia.  Read their history up until now, and it's easy to see their slow downward trajectory between 1984 and 2025.  

 

 

EXACTLY.

11 hours ago, GetFishorDieTryin said:

 

Prior to the Fresnillo location coming online, I thought everything was out of Park Falls.  What did they have made in China?  Was it the reels?

Triumph rods for a few years.

18 hours ago, Blaine Donders said:

Ark reels are Haibo. So are a lot of Ardent. To be fair, Haibos are really good stuff.

Haibo is also behind the Ray's Studio stuff too.  I was an early adopter of the Ray's spools and some of the earliest ones were for Daiwa TD-Z/Steez, T3 and the Haibo Steed/Smart.  They even came with a Haibo brake fitted to the spool.  The early Ray's spools overall appearance and design also looked like Haibo shallow spools seen on some of their reels.  Also, the 4 postion fixed rotor assembly on the Ark reels was 1st seen on the Ray's Studio Long Cast, short shaft 34mm spool.  Years later it re-appears on the Haibo Arise and Ark reels.

 

Early Ray's spool:

Haibo smart stock spools.  Ray's also briefly made color spools for Steed and Smart that they sold along side the early Daiwa spool.

I did some asking around about Daiwa and doyo reels.

 

I was told the primary reason for the legal blocks on certain products in USA was because of patent issues.

 

As an example, a company like daiwa might hire a company like doyo to make reels for them using daiwa's patents. Once doyo learns it, they *possibly*allegedly* might begin to incorporate it into their own products for sale.

 

Due to patent infringements, some products are considered illegal inside USA.

 

Did ya ever wonder about reels? Decades ago we had all kinds of different reels and reel ideas. Today across the board we find most reels are now all basically built the same way.

 

So the market has flowed with what works while cutting out what did not work and patents simply get in the way and are being ignored outside the USA and prosecuting and suing for it involve international disputes is extremely expensive and so most avoid the fight until lines are crossed and infringement products make their way into USA.

 

Patents are keeping some of them out I was told.

 

So an interesting subject to study would be the history of reels for last 100 years and more specifically the court cases domestic and foreign where big brands have fought over patent ideas that have brought us to the point where it does not matter which brand you purchase, they are all basically now constructed very similarly.

 

So areas for noted changes to reels would come from the patent fights and how the dust has settled.

 

Companies like Shimano hold patents to ideas they will never use and never make a penny off of. But those other patents that are still being used to this day are where the battle is. It seems like some companies are filing patents for BS ideas that won't even work in reality.

 

One of those patents I dug up was issued to Zebco/Quantum.

 

I did some research on drag washers and the materials used to make them. I dug up Shimano's dartanium patents. Very interesting! No other brands can use or touch dartanium

 

(until the reel comes across my bench. I like using dartanium 2 because I learned how to use it. And it is a really good drag washer. If it wasn't would shimano engineers install it into many of their high end reels to this day? It may have a bad rep, but a bad rep among people who may not be using it correctly and have a bad experience and blame the dartanium. I love it and use it in a number of my higher use reels like flipping and pitching reels are sure to get it. No cross weave carbon drag washers in my flipping and pitching reels or bottom reels. Not enough braking power. Drag washers like cross weave which are smooth to use because of slippage are better for reels used for cranking where I want that give since I use straight braid and fast rods.)

 

But it was the patent for a full ceramic drag washer issued to Quantum is one that might never be used until new ceramic compositions can be invented.

 

Quantum actually patented an idea that does not work well in reality. They figured ceramic was a good material for a drag washer so they patented it and then found out that their ceramic drag washers cracked up and failed. So today you won't find any ceramic drag washers inside of Quantum reels.

 

But if any of you know where to find one that is not broken I would sure like to get my hands on some of these ceramic drag washers. Quantum actually tried to make it work so I know there are some out there somewhere.

 

But what if Shimano invents a new ceramic composite material. Would it now conflict with the bogus patent Quantum has?

 

Honestly the most interesting history on reels is found inside of courthouses. The patents are interesting in that they provide the source and background for the fights, but it is inside those courts where the real juicy details are at. I wish I could get at some of those court records but in lawsuits quite often dealing with large companies with proprietary products involved their lawyers will invariably seal up the records of the fight just so we can't get to the truth.

 

So apparently what I was told is that in other parts of the world exists reels that are patents infringing and not allowed inside USA and territories, but are being sold elsewhere without a fight over it because of the expense of the cost not worth the results. But if the infringers tried to cross that line into USA all heck could break loose over it.

 

Think about how big China is and how much money we are talking about here.

 

They are perfectly willing to steal ideas and technologies from others and use it for themselves in violation of patents and laws. Its happening with rods and reels and lures and line and all of it.

 

Do any of us think or believe China will ever do what is right and follow the laws and patent protected ideas of other countries?

 

This subject is interesting to follow....

 

If I could I would acquire all reel patents in USA and other countries. And I would like to have all the reel patent court cases in every country of the world for the last 50 years.

 

These documents would blow it wide open for us all. Take the mystery out of why the rod and reel industry is the way it is today.

 

Now I am curious if any JDM products infringe on U.S. patents?

 

What is interesting to note is companies like Shimano files for patents in the countries they sell to as well as place of origin in Japan. So we might find duplicate patents slightly different in different countries.

 

I have to wonder if this might be behind why Shimano as a company will not or cannot ship any JDM reels or reel parts to USA customers? Zero support inside USA for JDM. Looks like it may be tracked right back to the patents? I can't prove it, but it is interesting to consider. Anyone know anything else on this?

Interesting thread.  

7 hours ago, webertime said:

Triumph rods for a few years.

It had to be first gen Triumphs then.  Because Mojo debuted in 08 or 09.  Even then it took a few years to work out the kinks in Fresnillo.  My preorder OG Mojo had a crooked tip.  Surprisingly enough the absolute worst rod SC ever produced as far failures go, by far is the 2021 Mojo inshore.  Failure rate was close to 40% in the quarter they were available.  I know a couple guides who only fished with SC because of good customer service, after 2 replacement mojos breaking, the one guy won't buy one ever again.  SC initially said it was operator error.  Eventually they admitted they had 2 defective batches of blanks.  That line is still having major issues, today, getting a good one is hit or miss.  SC did finally start to try to make things right by waving the $40 replacement fee and upgrading to Avid Inshore, but the damage has been done.

22 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

@F14A-B

Probably long out of production 15-y-o Takamiya rockfish.  

I bought a pair for me and my daughter, 7'6" solid tip, and 7'9" tubular tip.  

Loco Move must get lost in translation

Both rods are still on the winter glass minnow plate.  I gave the Cetus to Eric for several reasons, including his friendship, wanting him to enjoy it, along with another friend giving me a new Cetus, and my general swap to Shimano for threadline braid.  

 

If you're looking for a finesse rod in this range, chase the NS Black Hole Dark Horse.  

The upgrade rods are Yamaga Blanks and then EverGreen.  

My buddy Lou fished-through a Major Craft rockfish (exploded the solid tip), moved up to Yamaga Blanks Blue Current III 711, can't pry from his cold fingers, etc.  

My Y/B TZ Nano 83 is untouched for distance-fishing finesse tandem rigs.  

That Black Hole Dark Horse looks to be a nice stick.. at a fair price w free shipping. (S Korea) Kistler buys his blanks from S Korea now. I have a 7’ ML spinning and it’s quite good. 

@F14A-B also, IRT USA bench-built spinning reels sell NS Black Hole rods to match.  

Curious what a first gen Triumph rod looks like or, when you are saying they were made?

 

I ask this because I have at least one very early Triumph rod made in USA long before they moved to China. I would not have it in my collection if it did not say on the blank "made in USA." That's the whole point of why I spend my money on U.S. made rods.

 

A quick search online says they have been making the Triumph for 20 or 25 years.

 

I'd bet my Triumph rod was from the first couple of years. Its been a good rod. Not great. But not bad either. I don't give it a lot of heavy lifting tho. Easy fishing for that rod. Open water. No cover. And the Triumph is a fine rod.

 

Because of the grip I can't see the blank construction from the butt end, but I would suspect my Triumph rod at least is what is called a thin-wall rod. Kind of like how Falcon made theirs decades ago. Maybe because Don Mook built their factory too.

 

Over the years rod manufacturers have moved away from the thin wall rods because they crush and break easier than thick wall rods. So the brands have had more warranty claims for thin wall rods and is why the entire industry has moved towards thicker wall rods to simply make them stronger, more durable and less likely to break lowering warranty claims.

 

I guess my point would be that my much older rod should be more in line with first gen? And any newer rods, especially those made in China, could they also be considered as first gen?

 

 

-----------------------ADDED

 

The first time I came across a pencil rod, or thick wall rod, is the All Star Emerald Edition made by Morgan McCain after hiring Gary Loomis business partner Don Mook who built more rod blank factories in USA than any other person.

 

At the time Gary Loomis and Don Mook were business partners in Loomis Composites, Inc. or, LCI rods. You can still find them online sometimes for sale.

 

Gary and Don made thin wall rods with LCI. And Morgan McCain hired Don Mook to come to Houston, Texas to construct for him an All Star rod blank factory so Morgan could begin making his own rods, and stop buying the LCI blanks he had been using until he called in Don Mook.

 

You can also still find old U.S. made All Star rods that are really LCI blanks under the All Star brand.

 

When Don Mook fired up that new Houston rod blank factory, Don Mook and Morgan McCain made fishing tackle history! They made the first true pencil rod with thick walls. You can step on the rod blank and jump up and down on it and it will not crush. Can't do that with an LCI rod.

 

So if you can find them, the green Emerald Edition rods are absolutely historical! Do you know how many other brands have followed them ever since? All of them. Even Gary Loomis.

 

There are more secrets to Emerald Edition that needs scientific exploration. Seriously! And the reason is the binder they used to make these rods. I believe the binder has only gotten harder over the years improving the rod's characteristics over the decades.

 

It is the hardest binder I have ever come across. That rod rings with a high tone like a crystal glass sounds twice as high as any other rod. Its an amazing blank and in 30 years of searching I have only acquired 2 Emerald Edition rods. When a bass hits a lure like a rat'l trap, it feels like a lightning strike in your hand. Its amazing really. Love that rod and it was only $20 when sold new. Today it is still higher quality made than a lot of rods today.

 

I used to not talk about this one rod, but after 30 years of searching I gave up, and who needs 101 rods? I'm happy with what I got.

 

Morgan McCain and Don Mook deserve their credit for what they did. They changed fishing rods forever. And for the better too.

 

Morgan McCain is also credited with creating and inventing the technique specific rod which today is the standard.

 

Two unsung historic heroes of rod blanks right there!

 

If I were a bass fishing guide on the St. Johns river, I would have to charge customers extra to let them use the crystal rod! $10 per fish! Ha!

 

22 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

@F14A-B also, IRT USA bench-built spinning reels sell NS Black Hole rods to match.  

That’s unique 

Here's another one from the history books- for the history books. Dick Kantner RIP

 

 

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/legacyremembers/richard-kantner-obituary?id=16759779

 

Richard DeWolfe Kantner Sr.

1926 - 2015

 

Richard Kantner Obituary

Published by San Diego Union-Tribune on Jul. 12, 2015.

Richard DeWolfe Kantner Sr. November 24, 1926 - June 26, 2015 SAN DIEGO -- An Aviation Pioneer Offspring Dick was born in Miami, Florida to Mildred and Harold D. Kantner. His father, nicknamed "Birdman Kantner"*, was a pioneer in Aviation, holding USA Pilot's License #65. They moved to Meadville, Pennsylvania and then landed in San Diego in 1943 when Dick was 16. After his school days at San Diego High School, mid-40s and San Diego State, in the '50s, Dick started his career at NARMCO where he worked on classified projects such as the SR 71, "Blackbird". Dick was a pioneer in the use of carbon fiber in sports equipment such as graphite golf shafts and fishing rods. His company, Composite Development Corporation, established a fishing rod manufacturing company called Graphite-USA. Avid in model aircraft building, Dick was a volunteer at the San Diego Air and Space Museum. He is survived by his sons and daughter, Richard DeWolfe (Kit) Kantner II (Julie), Briggs Kantner (Hayley), Taiche Rudee (David); seven grandchildren, Mariana Potts (Trevor), Kelly Kantner, Katherine Kantner, Hunter Kantner, Ryder Kantner, Kyle Rudee, Sean Rudee; and four great-grandchildren, Mabel Potts, Walker Potts, Willoughby Potts and Duke Kantner. Dick will be laid to rest with his dear wife Taiche Willoughby at a private service at Fort Rosecrans National Cemetery on July 15, 2015 at 2:30 p.m. Friends are invited to join the family at a celebration of life from 5-8 p.m. at The San Diego Air and Space Museum, Balboa Park.

 

 

I bet a lot of fishermen did not realize some of the men behind making U.S. fishing rods were directly connected to Dept of Defense.

 

Carbon composite manufacturing is not just for fishing rods. Those guys made all kinds of products to sell. Dick Kantner here made fishing rods and other items in his company like plane parts.

 

Beside fishing rods, Gary Loomis also made golf clubs and military vehicle antennas among other things. Yep. Our fishing rods make great antennas too! Just think... in Iraq some soldier in uniform can take the antenna off his humvee and go fishing! Same thing. "I got myself a GLoomis antenna!"

 

The composites companies started by them making fishing rods were also used to serve the DOD!

 

"His company, Composite Development Corporation, established a fishing rod manufacturing company called Graphite-USA."

 

Composite Development Corporation would be the one he used for other products while assigning his fishing rod manufacturing side of his business to Graphite-USA.

 

Anyone ever hear of these rods? Anyone use these rods today?

 

When Dick Kantner died he took with him to his grave his secret methods and process of making his double helix rod blanks. No one alive today can make them. A one time historic deal right here. Will never come again.

 

His rods will have to be dissected by science to try and uncover how he made his blanks. I wonder if it is DOD secrets he transferred into his rods?

 

I was very fortunate to luck into 2 of Dick Kantner's Graphite-USA double helix rods at an estate sale. Mint condition too. Unused. Like new. I think I paid probably less than $20 for both of them.

 

For years I said I would not take a $1000 for one of them. And prices going up, maybe I should up it to $2000 or $3000? These individually handmade rods are extremely rare today.

 

I'm curious if there are any members here who have these rods and still use them? Fishing rods made by a CIA spy! Pretty cool!

 

My recollection of seeing made in China on Triumph rods was 2008-2009 timeframe when I deep dove back into bass fishing.

 

Lots of search results for that rod and China.