we see posts about Doyo and Banax every now and then so my question is

 

What's the current state of things?

 

Who's making what reel and who's rebranding the same reel without a mega mark up, just a fair price and reasonable profit?

 

What about rods/blanks - who's using what blanks from where?

 

Baits?

 

We know Abu has gone down hill, and there's a number of rod manufacturers now selling reels (croix, ducket etc.), where's all this coming from?

 

Kastking used to get a lot of hate, now they sell $260 reels and have a decent market share, been growing for a decade... 

 

@Eric 26

@Bazoo

@Bigbox99

@PhishLI

Well...before you go assuming it's all the same stuff with just a different label slapped on, you should know each model rod/reel is built to customer specs, even though they might be made in same facility, meaning different components, or maybe the gears are made from different material or tolerances....different grades of components too.  Different materials in rods, etc. even though they LOOK the same.

 

They might LOOK the same, but they're likely not.  Consumers don't know what to look for, or know the differences.  They just see something that appears the same on the surface and assume it's identical.

 

True, some companies control end-to-end manufacturing, making them truly unique, but many others custom-build from a catalog of thousands of parts. Just be cautious in assuming it's all the same.  

I had a friend that went through the full process for a commercial reel. It's possible to just do a label application, but what most are doing are speccing down to the detail what they want, and the manufacturer builds it for them. If I recall correctly the dies are around $200k, so it isn't a trivial project. 

These reel manufacturers are pretty sophisticated operations and, at least at the manufacturing step, you get what you pay for is the lay of the land.

 

I think rods/blanks are a bit more complicated or have space for innovation. On the blank front, there's a relatively new blank company in Texas; I think the guys running it are from the industry though, so it's not their first rodeo. I don't have any rods that use their blanks though, so no feedback.

To Glenn’s point, many products are made in the same factory(ies) but travel down a different “finishing” line. I know power tools (I’m a woodworker as well) are generally made in the same factory. 

To be clear, I highly doubt there's a rod or reel that's 100% identical with the only difference being the brand name.  That would be a unicorn.  It's certainly not a common practice, as every brand wants to stand out and be different.  Just because two or more are made at the same plant means nothing.

 

Some guys might disagree, but have zero actual proof to back it up.  Conspiracy theories make a good story, but are basically fairy tales.

I thought WHAT manufactures who.  Not the other way around. 

Let’s face it, we can all look at rods and determine EVA, vs Cork, vs Carbon grips. Most of us can examine a rod and determine Fuji, Alconite, Sic, AO , recoils..

 

The real problem is blank material. 
How many of us can actually and truthfully know or determine blank material? We hear the claims and quite frankly w so many rods coming from China this could never be proven by the consumer .Or even litigated. Toray carbon is one of the most common materials available and a top tier product but how do I know I’m getting Toray carbon from China? Via Japan?

 

It's important guys share information on the rods and performance because it’s not possible to view rods online and determine a rod blanks material, the marketing jargon is misleading, to make matters worse, many higher end models won’t even say anything about their pre peg material. Or state proprietary.. or something else like trade secret. 

7 hours ago, txchaser said:

I had a friend that went through the full process for a commercial reel. It's possible to just do a label application, but what most are doing are speccing down to the detail what they want, and the manufacturer builds it for them. If I recall correctly the dies are around $200k, so it isn't a trivial project. 

These reel manufacturers are pretty sophisticated operations and, at least at the manufacturing step, you get what you pay for is the lay of the land.

 

I think rods/blanks are a bit more complicated or have space for innovation. On the blank front, there's a relatively new blank company in Texas; I think the guys running it are from the industry though, so it's not their first rodeo. I don't have any rods that use their blanks though, so no feedback.

Absolutely true concerning rod blank’s material..

One thing is for sure, regardless of who is making the fishing rod or reel, I’m definitely gonna make a mess of it!  😂

 

Factories are labor contractors.  The things they build are often still proprietary designs.

@Glenn this is true, not 100% of one product is 100% the same as 100% of another product. But some are so dang close that the extra $100 is not justified one bit. And this being the case look at what the industry does internally, all cannibals. Look at Sycamore Partners, just one example is the Nessie. Total knock off, but I appreciate the affordable version of a $100 bait. They probably could've afforded to partner with Grow Design, but this is a perfect example of what we're talking about here. $100 bait can be made and put on sale for 8 bucks... BONKERS

 

I thought this was interesting, I had no idea that's what ZEBCO stood for. https://www.orcaonline.org/index-of-reel-makers-m-z/ 

Some of the gear heads might appreciate the history snippets there

 

@Jar11591 I agree, it should be what other way around, but sadly in many instances businesses/companies are technically a "who" https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution

 

2 hours ago, F14A-B said:

It's important guys share information on the rods and performance

💯 

 

@Bigbox99 id love to hear what you've discovered as affordable quality alternatives to over priced mega profit investment company owned products. Or if you wanna PM me I'd appreciate it.

 

 

I've been able to fit Revo LTX aftermarket parts on Lew's LFS

(no spool swaps to fit Lew's 34-mm, though)

When I dubbed my ZPI Alcance "Revo on Steroids" on TT Forum, I was corrected that this is a Banax-built reel.  

 

DVL may have some insight to who’s who regarding reels do to replacement parts availability.  The day of reel mfr’s making their own reels are limited to the high end models.

I bought a Ark limited edition BSF reel and don’t have a clue who made but it has all the bells & whistles @ $150. 

Tom

19 minutes ago, WRB-2.0 said:

I bought a Ark limited edition BSF reel and don’t have a clue who made it

Haibo from China. They know what they're doing. Just as Doyo stays out of the US market with agreements with Lew's, ABU, Daiwa, and BPS, Haibo stays out too, but you can still get them shipped here through ALIx.

Just to add some flavor to this discussion:

 

Back in '77 my first Daiwa 1000C had Made in Japan cast into the reel's foot. My second one, bought shortly thereafter, had Korea cast into the reel's foot. Couldn't tell the difference between them then, or today. I still have them both.

 

The point is that Asia other than Japan has been at this for a long time, and I'm unconcerned about their manufacturing capabilities at this point. Besides, what's the choice in the meantime? Japan will certainly offshore more and more as time goes on. Bates announced at iCast that they'll be producing some models domestically, but how many here on this board will give them a chance at their asking price?

 

I'm not worried about China or any other Asian company other than Japan building a fishing reel or rod and who might re-label it in full or in part as long as it's good. Ultimately, who gives AF? The business cycle is going to do what it does no matter what. In the meantime, run over to ALix and use your powers of perception and sniff out what you can with regard to what's what and who's who. If you're too lazy to do that, or uninterested enough to bother, then you don't deserve to save a buck.

I know for a fact KVD new spinning line for Lews is made by him in Michigan, At Least that’s what I heard from a guy who’s cousin mows his lawn 

This isn’t just about fishing—it’s the way the modern world works.

 

A few months ago, there was a recall at a factory that makes prepared frozen meals. The news listed the affected brands, and there were about a dozen well-known names on the list. That’s because the modern way of doing business is to focus on your “core competency” and outsource the rest.

 

The fishing industry is full of companies that do nothing but marketing. Nothing! In today’s world, you can hire people to do everything. There are companies like BBS Tech that manufacture braid for multiple industries, including fishing line. They’ll make it, package it with your branding, and distribute it. All you have to do is tell them what kind of line you want and I’m sure they have engineers who can advise you—even if you don’t know much about fishing line.  Your only real job is convincing people your braid is the best on the market. And if you’re not good at marketing? You can hire people for that too.

 

In theory, a one-person company could own a major fishing brand and outsource everything—manufacturing, marketing, distribution.

In reality, it’s hard to compete unless you bring some real value to the process.  In many cases that's just marketing expertise. 

 

 

How to Peek Behind the Curtain

 

I enjoy trying to figure out what’s really behind the fishing brands we discuss on this forum. Companies try to keep that kind of information secret, and it’s hard to get a complete picture. But there are clues.

 

If a company doesn’t tell you something, it’s probably because they don’t want you to know.

 

Companies that own their own factory brag about it. They post videos of their facility and show off the people working there. St. Croix, for example, will let you tour their factory. Their website even includes names and pictures of the people who build their rods.

 

Cashion Rods is another example. They proudly tell you their rods are made in South Carolina. If a product is made in the USA, the company will usually say so—on their website, in their marketing, and on the packaging. It’s something to brag about.

 

If you can’t figure out where something is made, the answer is probably China.

 

If a company doesn’t have an address or phone number on its website, that’s a red flag.

 

A missing phone number often means there’s no full-time staff to take calls. A missing address might mean the company is being run out of a garage. That doesn’t automatically mean the products are bad—but it does mean you should dig deeper.

 

Even if the address isn’t on the site, you can usually find it through a quick search. Business registration records often include physical addresses. Then plug that into Google Maps Street View—you might find it’s someone’s house or a warehouse with no signage. That tells you something.

 

What can you learn about the people behind the company?

 

Companies usually list their leadership team. If the company shows a president, a CFO, a director of marketing, and a product manager—but no lead engineer or head of product development—that suggests their products might be outsourced.

 

If a company claims to have designed “the best reel in the world,” they should be proud to name the engineers behind it. You can also check job postings. Are they hiring more marketers—or more engineers and product developers? That tells you what they actually value.

 

What happens when a company gets bought out?

 

There are a few possible outcomes:

• It keeps operating independently under new ownership.

• It becomes a division of a larger company.

• It becomes just a brand name slapped on generic products.

That last one is common. Anyone can source gear from China, slap a logo on it, and sell it. The catch? No brand loyalty. But if you buy a struggling company with a respected name, that problem goes away. You can now sell anything under that brand—whether or not it lives up to the original reputation.  Strike King fishing line comes to mind.

 

My Take

 

It’s impossible to know everything about a company’s inner workings—but there are always clues.

 

Googan Squad products might be designed by the strongest team of experts on the planet. If that’s true, I haven’t seen any evidence. It sure looks like a marketing effort to me.

 

Some people say they don’t care, as long as the products catch fish. To each their own. But I try to support companies that add real value to the products I buy—not ones that just repackage someone else’s work. I want to reward companies whose core competency is fishing, not marketing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m going to chime in with a few reels I know for sure are “alternative’s” to the OEM and a few I’m not sure of. First example are my Dream Tackle reels based on the Okuma Hakai, secondly would be my former BPS Carbonlite 2.0 casting reel which was definitely a dual braked white vs black Lews LFS, I also own a spinning version of this reel that is definitely a different colored Daiwa and a JM Platinum spinning reel that I was informed is a Fuego in disguise but I can’t verify that. Going back a few years I bought a new Cabela’s Arachnid that even says Daiwa on it and I’m pretty sure the Prodigy spinning reels were made by Daiwa also.  All of the reels I’ve mentioned were/are cheaper than their name brand counterparts but as was pointed out by @Glenn I couldn’t tell you if there are any internal differences as I’m nowhere near the point of tearing down my reels as I don’t possess the mechanical skills such as @bulldog1935, @redmeansdistortion @Bigbox99 and many others on here possess but if you’re willing to search on YT I’m pretty sure there are comparison videos of name brand vs knock offs out there. I’ll also say that although I own reels by the big 3 companies I enjoy some of the knock off reels I own and have and will continue to suggest the Piscifun brand for a cheaper alternative to many of the big brands and in fact my Piscifun Saex Elite is nothing more than a dual braked different accent colored Ardent Elite and I know first hand that at least one part swaps between the two as I couldn’t get the part from Piscifun but Ardent sent it to me. Here’s a photo comparing my reels to the Hakai.

Buy Daiwas. Put them on Shimanos.

 

Profit. Or catch fish.

 

Or both. 

@Eric 26

The Dream Tackle reels:

When I first learned about them, their website readily explained that they used the Hakai with Okuma's blessing. The changed the spool, spoolshaft, and lessened the drag. They used the Hakai cause of the lightness of the magnesium frame so no expensive tooling required.

So I bought an 8 speed on Amazon. Love the reel!  A year later, I wanted another and couldn't find it. After considerable searching, there they were, on Ali Baba. Go figure!. I bought 2, $110 apiece, direct from a China warehouse. I'm using 2, the 3rd still in the box. To make them even better, I changed out the spool bearings with spool speed abec 9's. Casts weightless plastics a mile!

7 hours ago, bowhunter63 said:

I know for a fact KVD new spinning line for Lews is made by him in Michigan, At Least that’s what I heard from a guy who’s cousin mows his lawn 

 

Ah yes, the lovely town of Michigan, South Korea.

@Eric 26 @little giant 

 

I have first hand experience with this situation. My father in law (rest his souls) was the president of a Chinese branch of an American company. Their headquarters are based in Belding, MI, had a plant in Germany, and decided to open a plant in Chico, China to better compete with pricing. He was the president of the China plant. They kept the American standards which are far superior to the Chinese standards but at a Chinese price. As time went on the Chinese stole their extrusion process and as you can assume they ended up closing the Chinese plant because they could no longer compete. So, you know where I’m going with this. There are a ton of companies fishing or not that move to China in order to be competitive pricing wise to deliver competitive pricing with the right standards we all demand but eventually the designs get stolen and pieces get replaced with low quality pieces and low standards and prices that are not competitive. So they may look the same but they are not to the quality and tolerance you’d expect from America, Japan, Germany, Sweden, etc. 

 

Someone with a micrometer prove me wrong. There’s no denying it happens everyday with every product, fishing or not.

All I want to know is where in the heck are all the made in China stickers manufactured?

^^ South Korea.  ^^

Interesting discussion. Thanks all.

Anyone who's been to Korea knows they're a fishing culture.  Dried fish (on a stick) sold by street vendors is their national snack (and the smell permeates to the top floor of the Seoul Hilton).  

You won't find a body of water anywhere in the country that the banks aren't lined shoulder-to-shoulder with fishermen.  

They have to try harder to sell in JDM, and NS Black Hole rods are among the best value made anywhere, from finesse to offshore.  

I suspect NS Craft handles are also made there, a classy upgrade to any reel.  

From a list of suppliers for Daiwa - wherever I found this interactive map, I flagged Doyo before I snipped it.