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roadwarrior

Equipment Beyond Your Skill Level?

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The Core thread and supertuning got me to thinking...

 

I'm using two brakes on both my Core (50 & 100). I had my Curado 50E and 200E supertuned

with ceramic bearings, but they were too fast dry! After adding a drop of oil, I still need two brakes

on both of these reels. On some reels I need three and sometimes four.

 

I like the cast control all the way open, just a 1/2 turn before the spool wiggles. This makes the

retrieve as smooth as it can be. However, without a couple of centrifugal brakes on, I cannot keep

from backlashing. I understand a trained thumb at the end of a cast, but how do you control the

reel at the beginning when it is wide open?

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The brakes are there to be used.  Why would you not use them?  I have never known anyone to come up and ask me how many brakes I'm using and then scoff when I tell them, just to reply that they use one less.

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The brakes are there to be used.  Why would you not use them?  

 

It's all about casting distance which is particulary important from the bank.

Ideally I would like to be able to utilize the full potential of my gear, but I feel

like I am giving some up.

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It's all about casting distance which is particulary important from the bank.

Ideally I would like to be able to utilize the full potential of my gear, but I feel

like I am giving some up.

Sorry my initial post was A-holeish

 

I understand what you mean as far as furthering the ability of your gear to cast farther.  But as you say if you take off the brakes it backlashes, then your casts go nowhere.

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I am in that boat RW, my 251 Calcutta purchased in 97 still frustrates the heck out of me, I need three brakes on and a heavy bait to be productive, really this and being a bank beater is why I have yet to purchase another bait-caster.  Do I go all in and get the shimano chronarch or do I get a much lower end model??  I can cast this thing farther then my stradics though.

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  You need to add a little spool tension ......Just add a little more till those big loops go away.

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I fish from the bank quite a bit as well and certainly casting distance can be important.  I don't have a set formula for any of my reels (like two brakes on and a certain spool tension).  Each reel type is a bit different, and of course weight and type of the bait being tossed makes a big difference.  For max distance with something like a lipless crank, on a centrifugal braking only reel, I usually start with two brakes on and less spool tension, but I'll also try a single brake and more spool tension. With bullkier baits like big cranks or spinnerbaits, I might have 3 brakes on and juggle spool tension.  On dual-braking reels, I might use 1, 2, or 3 brakes, little to mid-level mag braking, and juggle spool tension.  Sometimes I never seem to find an ideal setting...but occasionally I hit a sweet spot and the reel just sings.  My PQ 5-Year Challenge test reel, for instance, has a sweet spot with a 5/8 oz lipless crank of 1 centrifugal brake, just enough spool tension to limit sideplay, and mag braking between 2 to 6 - depending on wind.  Of course - all of this is somewhat dependent on a consistent force casting stroke.

 

On thumbing the spool at the beginning of the cast - I usually let the brakes take care of the early part of the cast. The only time I start to feather the spool as soon as I release it on the cast is in high wind when I want to keep solid control of the spool and stop it if I feel a backlash starting that I can't catch in time.

 

And then there's the Daiwas - on those I set spool tension to limit side play and then start with heavy mag braking and keep lightening up the braking untll, during a "trying to reach the other side of the lake" cast, the line starts to fluff up on the spool during the cast, then I add back one click of braking...:lol:

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You need to add a little spool tension ......Just add a little more till those big loops go away.

THIS!

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Okay..

 

Thanks, I will give that a try.

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kent,don't increase the spool tension.use the centrifugal brake.the brake comes off as the spool slows.the tension is constant.who cares how maany pins you use as long as you get distance.if you really want to cast get a abu garcia mgx.you'll never go shimano again.the externally adjustable centrifugal brake is awesome.

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Use the brakes to control casting, not the spool-tension knob. Too much tension will cause the spool shaft to drill into the spool shims, eventually necessitating replacement. If you have to use more brakes, do it! I have two Citica E's, one with ceramic hybrid spool bearings and the other with the stock bearings that have been flushed and lubed. I use three brakes on the upgraded reel and one on the stock reel. The difference is, it takes less effort to cast the same distance with the upgraded reel and it handles light baits better.

Also, try casting with a more easy motion and don't do an impersonation of a ballistic missile launcher. The upgraded bearings will do their job if you let them, and they only become unmanageable if you whip them too hard with light braking.

If you try braid, that will also help get rid of birds-nests.

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I have all my reels set up the same way, 1 brake on, cast control just tight enough to eliminate spool play. My 4 Citica E's are all stock with flushed stock bearings, my Curado 51E, & 301E have Boca Lightning ABEC 5's with one drop each of Shimano oil. My Curado 201DHSV has Orange Seals dry. My Chronarch 101B also has Lightning 5's with one drop each of oil. As Fishwhittler points out the upgraded bearings let you cast "easier" and still get great distance. They will out cast stock bearings but not by as much as some people think. I especially enjoy this added ease when pitching.

 

It takes every ounce of skill and concentration I have to cast dry Orangle Seals with only 1 brake though, but boy the distance to effort ratio is through the roof. 

 

If you are trying to get all the distance you can from your reels then I say practice, that's the way I got to the point I'm at now. I don't want this to sound like I'm trying to say I'm the greatest caster here or anything I'm simply telling you it is possible to set your reels up the way you want and successfully cast them without backlash. I agree with the others though about not using the cast control to stop your backlash problems, use the brakes. Start with as many as it takes to completely stop them then turn one off at a time until you get to where you want to be. I really hope this helps you a little and that it comes across the right way, I really don't want it to sound arrogant.      

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the breaks are on the real for a specific reason and the spool tensioner is also on there for a specific reason. The breaks help with backlashes that will occur later in the cast when the lure is slowing down, or when the spool is starting to spin faster than the line is coming out, but for birdsnests early in the cast the spool tensioner is best used. 

 

Mitch

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the breaks are on the real for a specific reason and the spool tensioner is also on there for a specific reason. The breaks help with backlashes that will occur later in the cast when the lure is slowing down, or when the spool is starting to spin faster than the line is coming out, but for birdsnests early in the cast the spool tensioner is best used. 

 

Mitch

 

This is incorrect.  The spool tensioner allows you to fine-tune a reel for different lure weights, but it is not a braking system nor should it be considered one.

 

Centrifugal brakes work by generating friction from plastic brake tabs against a metal ring (the brake race).  Due to inertia, the faster the spool spins, the more pressure from the brake shoes against the brake race.  Hence centrifugal brakes are most powerful early on in the cast.

 

Magnetic brakes work off the same principle that makes a magnet fall in slow motion when you drop it through a copper tube:  Lenz's Law.  

 

“Lenz’s Law applies the principles of energy conservation to situations that involve forces in electromagnetism. To see an example, move a magnet towards the face of a closed loop of wire (e.g. a coil or solenoid). An electric current is induced in the wire, because the electrons within it are subjected to an increasing magnetic field as the magnet approaches. This produces an EMF (electro-motive force) that acts upon them.”

 

Instead of a copper tube, we're talking about the same thing with an aluminum spool or brake plate.  The magnets remain the same distance from the aluminum surface throughout the cast, therefore the braking remains virtually the same.  One might make the case that there is more braking when the spool is spinning faster due to increased EMF, but any such difference is unnoticeable in actual use.

 

Daiwa has some advanced magnetic braking systems that do actually provide more breaking early in the cast and then decrease force as the spool slows (Magforce Z; Magforce 3d), but those are the exception rather than the rule.

 

Here's a better description than I can give:  Japan Tackle Brake systems of casting reels

 

Bottom line, use brakes to control the spool and the spool tension to adjust for lure weight.

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The Core thread and supertuning got me to thinking...

 

I'm using two brakes on both my Core (50 & 100). I had my Curado 50E and 200E supertuned

with ceramic bearings, but they were too fast dry! After adding a drop of oil, I still need two brakes

on both of these reels. On some reels I need three and sometimes four.

 

I like the cast control all the way open, just a 1/2 turn before the spool wiggles. This makes the

retrieve as smooth as it can be. However, without a couple of centrifugal brakes on, I cannot keep

from backlashing. I understand a trained thumb at the end of a cast, but how do you control the

reel at the beginning when it is wide open?

I want to be clear about my post....The way I read the highlighted area is Kent has not adjusted the spool tension to the weight of the lure he is throwing. Now normally what happens when you do not do that you will start to get big loops forming on the spool which turn into a backlash. That is why I am saying he needs to add a little spool tension. I am not recommending you use your spool tension as a brake but honing in on what I perceive is his problem at the start up point of his casting as to why it is backlashing....

 What works for me is to apply spool tension till the lure drops freely after I disengage the clutch. If I do not see any large loops forming after the cast I will continue to back off the spool tension knob a click or two to free up the spool as much as possible.(fine tuning). I will continue this process until the reel starts to form those loops staying in control and not backlashing.....

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lol... What I said early is definately not incorrect Fishwhittler. you are using Physics in an oversimplified situation. the only thing adding centrifigal breaks does is increase the moment of inertia, making the spool take more force to rotate. but at very high force and speed like occurs in the begining of a cast the small force exerted by the cetrifigal breaking system or the mag breaking system is just not enough. this is why you set the spool tensioner correctly to eliminate the early cast backlashes. one other way that you can help reduce the early cast backlashes is use proper thumb control. Personally I use the two breaking systems on the reel together so that thumb is usually not needed very much, while still having good casting distance. Try this out see if I am right or wrong.

 

Mitch

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Roadwarrior, I will never have the expertise you have at this moment.  Therefore I am not going to try and tell you what you are doing wrong.  You did ask if we had equipment beyond our skill level.  That is a definite yes in my case.

 

I am one that initially used too much spool tension to avoid backlashing.  Sent a few reels to a fellow member for cleaning and upgrading, and he informed me of what I was doing wrong.  I now run spool tension just tight enough to remove side-to-side play.  He also suggested not to fill spool to the recommended 1/16-1/8 inch below the rim, but to fill all the way.  Said it would help with distance, increase IPT slightly, and improve drag performance.  Set up his way I had to learn to cast all over again.  However, it was worth it.  I get as much distance as before with a lot less effort.  Heck, my underhand (roll?) casts reach as far as my previous side arm casts.

 

Most of my reels are magnetic brake only.  If I throw 3/8 oz and over...no problem.  Drop down to 1/4 oz. and below...trouble.  My Alphas ito and Sol cause me to pull hair out sometimes.  I feel it is because the spools start up so much faster that my lack of skill becomes readily apparent.  Also I have neglected practicing with light lures.  Something I intend to correct this year as I now have a 105H/HMG Lite, an upgraded Sol with Presso spool and a Purple Alphas that need to be put into rotation.

 

I also fish from shore a lot and almost always throw for distance.  I can feel when the spool starts to "fluff" and apply thumb.  Actually, my thumb is often too close (slightly touching) which obviously is going to hurt distance.

 

I currently run my Curado 51E with 2 brakes on and spool tension set the same as on all my other reels.  3/16 oz. into the wind is no problem.

 

 

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lol... What I said early is definately not incorrect Fishwhittler. you are using Physics in an oversimplified situation. the only thing adding centrifigal breaks does is increase the moment of inertia, making the spool take more force to rotate. but at very high force and speed like occurs in the begining of a cast the small force exerted by the cetrifigal breaking system or the mag breaking system is just not enough. this is why you set the spool tensioner correctly to eliminate the early cast backlashes. one other way that you can help reduce the early cast backlashes is use proper thumb control. Personally I use the two breaking systems on the reel together so that thumb is usually not needed very much, while still having good casting distance. Try this out see if I am right or wrong.

 

Mitch

 

 

 

 

You're confusing ease of spool startup with early-cast braking.  The spool tension should be adjusted for the weight of the lure, if at all.  Personally I prefer to run my reels with just enough spool tension to keep the spool from moving laterally and then adjust the brakes depending on the conditions.  The spool tension knob is not a brake—it is strictly for fine-tuning the reel depending on the lure weight.  It was formerly called the cast-control knob before true braking systems were developed, but this is no longer the correct name.  It puts tension on the spool.  Again, it's not a brake.

 

I used to be of the school of thought that uses only a few brake pads and uses the spool tension knob as a brake.  Sometimes I'd crank the knob down fairly tight in order to keep my casts under control.  Only problem was, that pressure ended up putting dimples in the spool shims.  I started using more brakes and less spool tension and got the same casting results with no dimpling on the spool shims.

 

Try this article instead—the author puts the case better than I do:  Setting brakes and spool tension

 

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Thanks!

 

Time for a re-do...

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I would agree 100 % that you should use the magnetic breaking or the centrifigal breaks primarily and then andjust the spool tensioner appropriatly to have your set up working optimally. that being said you will not be able to use only your mag/centrif breaking systems alone and properly control your casts. you might be able to cast with the wind and do fine, but cast into the wind and look out! magnetic breaking and centrifigal breaking has no where neer the force required to have a signifigant breaking effect durring the initial cast, this is why you set the tensioner so that the falls relatively slowly when the spool is disengagued, or some people like to just reduce side to side play in the spool. that is fine but realy what you are doing is increasing the friction on the spool so that throughout the entire cast the spool will spin it a decreased rate compared to no tension. the older style reels only had spool tensioner anjustments and you could set those to never backlash. now remove that feature on the new baitcasters, and use only the other breaking systems. you would be in for a rough da untill you learn how to use your thumb. 

 

Mitch

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I would agree 100 % that you should use the magnetic breaking or the centrifigal breaks primarily and then andjust the spool tensioner appropriatly to have your set up working optimally. that being said you will not be able to use only your mag/centrif breaking systems alone and properly control your casts. you might be able to cast with the wind and do fine, but cast into the wind and look out! magnetic breaking and centrifigal breaking has no where neer the force required to have a signifigant breaking effect durring the initial cast, this is why you set the tensioner so that the falls relatively slowly when the spool is disengagued, or some people like to just reduce side to side play in the spool. that is fine but realy what you are doing is increasing the friction on the spool so that throughout the entire cast the spool will spin it a decreased rate compared to no tension. the older style reels only had spool tensioner anjustments and you could set those to never backlash. now remove that feature on the new baitcasters, and use only the other breaking systems. you would be in for a rough da untill you learn how to use your thumb. 

 

Mitch

I only use my centrifugal brakes and my casts are controlled just fine so your statement that it can't be done is incorrect. I never adjust anything on my reels, I fish them with one brake on and the cast control only tight enough to eliminate spool play no matter the lure or wind conditions of the day. It is very possible to learn to use your reels this way, just takes a little practice.

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This thread has me a little confused. Generally, I fish with all my breaks completely turned off and the spool tension knob only tight enough to allow my bait to fall without backlashing, and then I loosen as I need to gain casting distance. Are you saying that I should loosen the spool tension more and start utilizing more breaks? If its just a matter of preference, I'd rather do it the way I have been, but if there's a performance benefit, or I'm eliminating potential damage to my reels, then I definitely want to switch. 

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spool tension is a constant parasitic drain on distance.so are magnetic brakes.centrifugal brakes work on the start up of the spool and back off as the spool slows.keeping your spool tension low and using centrifugal brakes and your thumb will give you the best distance.so will buying an abugarcia mgx.

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This thread has me a little confused. Generally, I fish with all my breaks completely turned off and the spool tension knob only tight enough to allow my bait to fall without backlashing, and then I loosen as I need to gain casting distance. Are you saying that I should loosen the spool tension more and start utilizing more breaks? If its just a matter of preference, I'd rather do it the way I have been, but if there's a performance benefit, or I'm eliminating potential damage to my reels, then I definitely want to switch. 

 

Why mess with success?  Obviously you have a well educated thumb.  As you saw from the previous posters, not everyone sets their reels up the same way, yet most do just fine.  Many set spool tension just like you do AND use brakes.

 

Roadwarrior, I proved....again.....Saturday that I have gear beyond my skill level.  Took out my new combo, a TD-Z 105H/Fenwick HMG Lite.  I told myself to start with easy casts until I had a chance to become familiar with the reel.  Was fishing from shore standing above and back from the edge.  First cast I threw hard.  Knew I was in trouble from the sound of the spool.  Did I thumb the spool or stop it?  Nope.  Mother of all backlashes.  Removing it will take an hour or two or else cutting probably a 100 yards of line off.  Had minimum spool tension, but forgot to look at where the magnetic brake was set.  It was turned completely off.  I would have started at 10 for the first few casts to see how well I could handle the reel at those settings, and then gone done if possible on the brake.  Not the first time I have made a cast with zero brakes.  The results are always the same. :cry4:

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