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Insert Less Guides

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I want a Duckett ghost, but I fear that the insert less guides will damage my fluorocarbon. Am I totally wrong here? Anyone have any experience with these guides?

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I've wondered about that as well. Not necessarily if it would harm fluoro, but how a guide with no insert would perform and hold up over time. I don't think Duckett would release a fishing rod that would harm any type of line. Now, I could be very mistaken, but I would hope that a company would not release a product that prevented a user from utilizing one of the major types of line anglers use. 

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My GLX has recoils (no inserts) and I don't even notice them being much louder at all with braid and I doubt it will knick your line.

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The only draw back that I have heard of with them is that they wear out quickly and are not good with braided lines.

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The won't hurt your line unless they become damaged, which can be said about any guide.

 

Ditto,  I've had several BCR GLX rods and have never had an issue with braid or flouro. 

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My GLX has recoils (no inserts) and I don't even notice them being much louder at all with braid and I doubt it will knick your line.

 

They are not recoils. Instead they are stainless steel. It would depend upon the hardness of the hard chrome inserts. They should not damage any line unless they grooved or get worn from abrasive grit adhering to your line.

  • Proprietary 316 Stainless Steel frames with industrial grade hard chrome inserts;
  • Eliminates ring loss with increased sensitivity.
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Powell also released rods with insert less guides. I wonder is this is the new trend in affordability.

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Not sure about a trend, maybe lighter? I think the insertless guides need much more TLC. Don't hook your lure in them when storing and be very careful as raw stainless guides are much softer than ceramic and other types of inserts. We use ceramic cutting inserts to machine hardened steel. Do the math. Also ceramic will not nick, it will crack and fall out of the guide letting you know right away you have a problem.

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Powell also released rods with insert less guides. I wonder is this is the new trend in affordability.

They claim it's for weight savings, and no insert to fall out or crack. In reality, they're just being cheap. They're the same guides used on $40 Berkley rods and really have no business on a $100+ rod. Recoils aren't much better, but do have some better properties. They're essentially indestructible, plus they're titanium. Definitely an upgrade over insertless stainless steel, though not as good as a quality ceramic.

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They claim it's for weight savings, and no insert to fall out or crack. In reality, they're just being cheap. They're the same guides used on $40 Berkley rods and really have no business on a $100+ rod. Recoils aren't much better, but do have some better properties. They're essentially indestructible, plus they're titanium. Definitely an upgrade over insertless stainless steel, though not as good as a quality ceramic.

I agree.

 

They still won't hurt your line though, unless they get damaged.

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They claim it's for weight savings, and no insert to fall out or crack. In reality, they're just being cheap. They're the same guides used on $40 Berkley rods and really have no business on a $100+ rod. Recoils aren't much better, but do have some better properties. They're essentially indestructible, plus they're titanium. Definitely an upgrade over insertless stainless steel, though not as good as a quality ceramic.

Unfortunately this is exactly what I meant.

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Here is a list of guide material hardness.  

This list was complied by Mattman a custom rod builder of Otterrods. I'll also throw these hardness values out there...


Stainless Steel (SS): 400
Chrome: 800-1000
Carbaloy: 1000
Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400
Alconite : 1300-1500
NanoLite : 1800
Zirconia: 1000-1400
Zirconia PVD: 1600
SiC: 2200-2400

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I agree.

 

They still won't hurt your line though, unless they get damaged.

They may not necessarily hurt your line, but they aren't good for it. Anytime you're applying friction to your line, you're doing slight damage; especially with lines like fluorocarbon, which has poor abrasion resistance when dry.

 

As far as the hardness list above, I also saw Mattman say he once took a file to a SiC guide and couldn't even scratch it. It's some tough stuff.

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I use Minima4 guides fairly regularly and have had no problems at all with them. They are economical, but that does not necessarily make something poor quality. On a $100 rod, the weight savings is a reasonable tradeoff IMO. They may not last two lifetimes with dirty braid run thru them regularly but you'll get your $ worth unless "proprietary" means 2nd run super cheap. That doesn't appear to be the case with Duckett in general though.

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The only draw back that I have heard of with them is that they wear out quickly and are not good with braided lines.

Sorry this came out wrong. What I meant was I heard braided line was rough on the guides not the guides are rough on the line. And I would Imagine it would be with a ton of use pulling hawgs out of the thick if it happens at all.

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Here is a list of guide material hardness.  

This list was complied by Mattman a custom rod builder of Otterrods. I'll also throw these hardness values out there...

Stainless Steel (SS): 400

Chrome: 800-1000

Carbaloy: 1000

Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400

Alconite : 1300-1500

NanoLite : 1800

Zirconia: 1000-1400

Zirconia PVD: 1600

SiC: 2200-2400

Are these numbers from the Vickers scale? Hard chrome is usually .002"-.003" thick. We've found it has a tendency to flake in time. Might be different with each substrate. PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) coating is extremely thin, usually around .5 microns but could be thicker when used on guides, but holds up very well. PVD is the name for the method used to deposit the coating material on the object to be coated. There are 5 types of coatings used for PVD. That's enough of the science lesson.

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"Premium Micro Guides with proprietary 316 Stainless Steel frames and industrial-grade hard chrome inserts span each blank as well, eliminating the problem of ring loss and increasing sensitivity." -this was taken from a description of the guides on the Ghost rods, so they aren't exactly insertless like RECOIL guides, they do look similar though. I like my rods that have RECOIL guides, never had any problems with them, even with fluorocarbon.

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Their rods are supposed to have a 20 year warranty and if you use the warrant in the first year you can just exchange it at a store. Would this be covered under their warranty because what everyone is saying is that the guys will wear out fairly quickly. 

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