3 minutes ago, Goby said:

 

It's generally the males that are guarding the beds that are caught off the beds, once the eggs are already on the beds... Females aren't typically around long enough to be targeted on the bed... 

 

That's just not true.

 

The same groups of females return to the same areas every year and they hang around their beds most of the time whether it be shallow or deep around their beds.

 

Sometimes they just patrol the area like sentinels and you can't see them.

 

It's just not the way we thought it was for years.  Sorry.

 

Actually, with the biggest fish it's almost always only females around the beds and oftentimes you won't see any fish on the beds. They look vacant. 

 

Males learn that they will die if they stick around to guard the beds!  🙂

 

You know who kills more largemouth bass on beds every year than any other species combined? 

 

Largemouth bass! 

 

Momma is a cannibal.

6 minutes ago, Pat Brown said:

You know who kills more largemouth bass on beds every year than any other species combined? 

 

Largemouth bass! 

 

Momma is a cannibal.

 

Up here its northern pike.

 

And yes, most gamefish are cannibalistic.  Northern pike are far more aggressive than bass here, they feed year round (even under the ice, unlike most bass), and many of our lakes are loaded with an abundance of small hungry ones.

 

But, as you stated, bigger fish of the same species will eat smaller ones.  So it's very important to release the bigger northern pike so they help keep the smaller ones in check.

 

That being said, it still doesn't change my mind about releasing bedded fish.  If you're going to target and catch them, return them to the water quickly.  Do not haul them around in a live well miles away.

Just now, Pat Brown said:

 

That's just not true.

 

The same groups of females return to the same areas every year and they hang around their beds most of the time whether it be shallow or deep around their beds.

 

Sometimes they just patrol the area like sentinels and you can't see them.

 

It's just not the way we thought it was for years.  Sorry.

 

It is true bud, females don't stick around nearly as long as the males do...

 

Generally, most Bass that are targeted on beds are males, obviously there are scenarios where females are targeted on beds, but it's not as common, obviously the females would be more likely to be targeted as they are larger on average, etc... if they are around... 

 

The true disadvantages to fishing the spawn are what can occur to the eggs if/when the bed is left unguarded... Obviously some fisheries this is of much more concern than others... 

 

 

1 minute ago, gim said:

 

Up here its northern pike.

 

And yes, most gamefish are cannibalistic.  Northern pike are far more aggressive than bass here, they feed year round (even under the ice, unlike most bass), and many of our lakes are loaded with an abundance of small hungry ones.

 

But, as you stated, bigger fish of the same species will eat smaller ones.  So it's very important to release the bigger northern pike so they help keep the smaller ones in check.

 

That being said, it still doesn't change my mind about releasing bedded fish.  If you're going to target and catch them, return them to the water quickly.  Do not haul them around in a live well miles away.

 

 

I agree that tournaments are another factor to consider.  Tournaments being catch weigh and release should be mandatory - bump board for length - whatever it takes.  The way we do it with live wells and hauling fish around is indeed barbaric to me.

2 minutes ago, Goby said:

 

It is true bud, females don't stick around nearly as long as the males do...

 

Generally, most Bass that are targeted on beds are males, obviously there are scenarios where females are targeted on beds, but it's not as common, obviously the females would be more likely to be targeted as they are larger on average, etc... if they are around... 

 

The true disadvantages to fishing the spawn are what can occur to the eggs if/when the bed is left unguarded... Obviously some fisheries this is of much more concern than others... 

 

 

 

 

I mean - I promise you not all females leave the area they spawn and just go about their business - a lot of them actually spend their entire lives in a fairly close proximity to their nests and are always guarding the area instinctively.  It's not something they do once a year or something.  It's a fluid state of eat, make babies, eat, make babies that they never really stop being in.

4 minutes ago, gim said:

 

Up here its northern pike.

 

And yes, most gamefish are cannibalistic.  Northern pike are far more aggressive than bass here, they feed year round (even under the ice, unlike most bass), and many of our lakes are loaded with an abundance of small hungry ones.

 

But, as you stated, bigger fish of the same species will eat smaller ones.  So it's very important to release the bigger northern pike so they help keep the smaller ones in check.

 

That being said, it still doesn't change my mind about releasing bedded fish.  If you're going to target and catch them, return them to the water quickly.  Do not haul them around in a live well miles away.

 

Fun fact... there are a plethora of studies that show how Muskies help maintain the overall health of ecosystems by controlling Pike populations... 

 

Pike are one of the worst species when it comes to over-populating and then stunting their populations, the average size of Perch for example are larger on lakes with Muskies present than not...

6 minutes ago, Pat Brown said:

 

 

I agree that tournaments are another factor to consider.  Tournaments being catch weigh and release should be mandatory - bump board for length - whatever it takes.  The way we do it with live wells and hauling fish around is indeed barbaric to me.

 

And yet, that is exactly what the OP is doing.  SMH

3 minutes ago, Goby said:

Fun fact... there are a plethora of studies that show how Muskies help maintain the overall health of ecosystems by controlling Pike populations... 

 

Yes, that's true.  But only if the density of the muskie population is high enough to make a sizable dent.

 

That's just not the case here in MN or WI anymore due to the massive roll back of stocking.  In some lakes here now, the muskie density is about 1 adult fish for every 40 square acres.  And most of the lakes here that are over loaded with northern pike actually don't have muskies.  So the apex predator in those lakes is a sizable northern pike.

 

I'm very familiar with this pike problem both from a recreational fishing stand point and a biology stand point.  When I worked for the DNR 20 years ago, the problem was just beginning to emerge.  Nothing has changed since, even with a liberal daily bag limit of 10 northern pike in most of the state.  Most anglers are just not interested in keeping them.  They want walleyes or panfish.

1 minute ago, gim said:

 

And yet, that is exactly what the OP is doing.  SMH

 

 

To be fair - he didn't make the rules and he is open to discussing this.  I think basically trying to be decent to the creatures is better than not trying to be decent to the creatures.

 

There are times of years I will actually use my live well to rejuvenate a fish - primarily summer when they can be worn out and the water doesn't have a ton of oxygen.

 

I don't haul them around all day but having a live well can be part of taking good care of the fish we catch if they're having a hard time after a long fight.

3 minutes ago, Pat Brown said:

 

 

I agree that tournaments are another factor to consider.  Tournaments being catch weigh and release should be mandatory - bump board for length - whatever it takes.  The way we do it with live wells and hauling fish around is indeed barbaric to me.

 

 

I mean - I promise you not all females leave the area they spawn and just go about their business - a lot of them actually spend their entire lives in a fairly close proximity to their nests and are always guarding the area instinctively.  It's not something they do once a year or something.  It's a fluid state of eat, make babies, eat, make babies that they never really stop being in.

 

Son... I get it, you are passionate and have done some research online, but read the title of this thread.... It states bed fishing.... 

 

You are trying to add in all these additional variables to make a point that doesn't really exist...

 

Are we talking bed fishing or fishing during the spawn? Big difference there, especially depending on where you are... 

3 minutes ago, Pat Brown said:

There are times of years I will actually use my live well to rejuvenate a fish - primarily summer when they can be worn out and the water doesn't have a ton of oxygen.

 

I don't haul them around all day but having a live well can be part of taking good care of the fish we catch if they're having a hard time after a long fight.

 

I'm not so sure that a live well is the answer there though.  The water in your live well is the same as it is in the lake you just caught the fish from - very warm.  I personally would rather try to hold it in the water and slightly move it along in an attempt to revive it than place it in the live well.

 

Which brings up yet another time period when I believe C & R for tournaments should be mandatory: during the warmest time of year when mortality is the highest.

14 minutes ago, gim said:

 

And yet, that is exactly what the OP is doing.  SMH

 

Yes, that's true.  But only if the density of the muskie population is high enough to make a sizable dent.

 

That's just not the case here in MN or WI anymore due to the massive roll back of stocking.  In some lakes here now, the muskie density is about 1 adult fish for every 40 square acres.  And most of the lakes here that are over loaded with northern pike actually don't have muskies.  So the apex predator in those lakes is a sizable northern pike.

 

I'm very familiar with this pike problem both from a recreational fishing stand point and a biology stand point.  When I worked for the DNR 20 years ago, the problem was just beginning to emerge.  Nothing has changed since, even with a liberal daily bag limit of 10 northern pike in most of the state.  Most anglers are just not interested in keeping them.  They want walleyes or panfish.

 

I am a board member and the Secretary of the Michigan Muskie Alliance, Minnesota and Wisconsin definitely have some issues with their Muskie programs, lot of baseless hatred for Muskies from non-Muskie anglers...

 

Meanwhile in Michigan we are doing a LOT for Muskies, we just finished up placing 20 transponders in adult fish to research their migration patterns in and out of drowned river mouths in West Michigan, specifically but not limited to Lake Macatawa... 

 

We just installed laser bird deterrent systems at the hatcheries to better protect the fish in the earthen ponds too. Was funded by our organization and another non-profit... 

 

Next year we will begin taking eggs from our two new Great Lakes Strain broodstock lakes which will allow for an additional 6+ weeks of time for the fish to grow in the ponds before release, big things in the Michigan Muskie World... 

 

To be 100% honest, I think Pike taste just as good as Walleye, if not better on some fisheries, if they didn't have those Y-Bones, they would be endangered LOL 

3 minutes ago, Goby said:

To be 100% honest, I think Pike taste just as good as Walleye, if not better on some fisheries, if they didn't have those Y-Bones

 

Agreed.  I have trouble getting past the slime and I'm not very proficient at removing the y bones.  In the fall I keep a bunch and pickle them.  The pickling process dissolves the y bones.  But I'm only one person.  I can't make much of a dent on my own lol

 

Good luck with the muskie study.

 

We officially altered the course of this thread too

5 minutes ago, Goby said:

 

Son... I get it, you are passionate and have done some research online, but read the title of this thread.... It states bed fishing.... 

 

You are trying to add in all these additional variables to make a point that doesn't really exist...

 

Are we talking bed fishing or fishing during the spawn? Big difference there, especially depending on where you are... 

 

 

This isn't online research it's just observing fish every year every day for years in North Carolina.  It's backed up by lots of things I've read and heard online sure but it isn't just me making a pointless point.

 

Bed fishing and fishing during the spawn are not separate things is the exact point I'm making.

 

The fish are vulnerable and biting things aggressively to protect their areas the whole time it's not just on a physical bed.

 

8 minutes ago, gim said:

 

I'm not so sure that a live well is the answer there though.  The water in your live well is the same as it is in the lake you just caught the fish from - very warm.  I personally would rather try to hold it in the water and slightly move it along in an attempt to revive it than place it in the live well.

 

Which brings up yet another time period when I believe C & R for tournaments should be mandatory: during the warmest time of year when mortality is the highest.

 

 

Well the water is the same water + oxygen that I'm pumping in very rapidly.  They seem to like that.

4 minutes ago, gim said:

 

Agreed.  I have trouble getting past the slime and I'm not very proficient at removing the y bones.  In the fall I keep a bunch and pickle them.  The pickling process dissolves the y bones.  But I'm only one person.  I can't make much of a dent on my own lol

 

Good luck with the muskie study.

 

We officially altered the course of this thread too

 

YouTube has some great videos on removing the Y-Bones while cleaning them.

 

On that note, time to go fishing... Have a great one! 

There's a big difference in reading things, and observing them first hand. My belief from limited time sight fishing a few different fisheries is each one sets up a little different with regard to bass behavior. Each fish has a different personality which is pretty cool if you spend enough time watching. 

 

In lake Norman for instance, you can pull up on a dock and watch them on deep beds as long as you want and learn a lot. You can watch them shallow on bank and learn more. There are differences in how each of those operate, and similarities. I find it extremely educational to sight fish but have limited time due to work obligations. 

 

I will say though, Pat has hundreds (thousands?) of hours personal experience observing bed fish. And he local to me. So his observations are going to trump anything I read online because he's speaking from recent, local, first hand observation. 

I like bed fishing.  In my experience, the majority of bass anglers don't actually understand the spawn at all - though most think they do.  

 

It's not as dramatic so many seem to make it.  "Disrupting the spawn," can happen anytime - You catch a bass in winter, prespawn, summer, fall, or any other time and move it, keep it, kill it with a deep hook, or whatever else....It's not going to spawn in the same place, with the same other bass, or maybe even at all during the next spawn cycle as it would have otherwise had you not "disrupted" it.  Creating fictional "Back To The Future" timelines for wild animals is silly.

 

Some state DNR's step in if they feel it's needed and close seasons, it seems a lot of northern states do this.  I would say if the DNR biologists allow fishing, they don't believe it's an issue.  Here in MD we actually bear the brunt of those decisions because PA and NY in particular close their seasons while we don't - So all of those anglers come down here to fish and hold their tournaments all spring...Which causes some friction.

Water visibility here in spring is 6” so you’re not sight fishing beds. I guess you can use live scope to do that now.
 

We have several spawning flats that become over crowded with everyone casting over each other dragging plastics. It’s painfully boring and annoying going round and round in a bathtub with everyone else. 

 

2 hours ago, Susky River Rat said:

In my state you cannot make repeated casts at fish on beds. So it’s really a none factor for me since it’s illegal. 

Is this real? How would they even enforce that? Can you make repeated casts to a piece of cover if you haven't seen a bedded fish?

 

2 hours ago, Goby said:

I dislike "intentional" bed fishing as it's bad for the future of the fisheries...  

 

Plenty of science to back that up as well...

I too would love to see a study or two to back that up? Modern fisheries science says that most lakes are overpopulated with bass, so removing fish from that population helps it. 

 

2 hours ago, gim said:

I wouldn't disturb a doe giving birth to a fawn or a hen turkey sitting on a clutch of eggs, so I'm not going to purposefully interrupt the spawning process of a bass (or any other game fish either).  If there's a tournament during the spawn, it should be mandatory C & R.

Apples and oranges. How many fawns does a doe have? How many eggs/polts does a turkey have? 2 maybe 3 fawns. 6-15 eggs/polts. How many deer inhabit an acre? How many turkey? Most suggest 10ish acres per deer and 30ish for turkey. Now how many eggs does one bass lay and how many bass per acre? One bass averages 4000-5000 eggs and most lakes should average 50-100 bass per acre. So you have a fawn or turkey born for every 2-3 acres but you have 200,000-1,000,000 bass eggs per acre. You could destroy 95% of beds at a given time and see no effect on a fishery the following year on most every lake in this country. That's why species with low recruitment rates reproduce in huge numbers, because nature expects the vast majority to not survive to adulthood. 

 

2 hours ago, Goby said:

It's generally the males that are guarding the beds that are caught off the beds, once the eggs are already on the beds... Females aren't typically around long enough to be targeted on the bed... 

This might be true for someone who isn't good at bed fishing. People who are good at it, generally ignore the bucks and focus on the females. Heck, the good bed fisherman (especially in tournaments) skip over more beds than they fish because it's not worth it to target the males and smaller females. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, JHoss said:

Is this real? How would they even enforce that? Can you make repeated casts to a piece of cover if you haven't seen a bedded fish?

 

I too would love to see a study or two to back that up? Modern fisheries science says that most lakes are overpopulated with bass, so removing fish from that population helps it. 

 

Apples and oranges. How many fawns does a doe have? How many eggs/polts does a turkey have? 2 maybe 3 fawns. 6-15 eggs/polts. How many deer inhabit an acre? How many turkey? Most suggest 10ish acres per deer and 30ish for turkey. Now how many eggs does one bass lay and how many bass per acre? One bass averages 4000-5000 eggs and most lakes should average 50-100 bass per acre. So you have a fawn or turkey born for every 2-3 acres but you have 200,000-1,000,000 bass eggs per acre. You could destroy 95% of beds at a given time and see no effect on a fishery the following year on most every lake in this country. That's why species with low recruitment rates reproduce in huge numbers, because nature expects the vast majority to not survive to adulthood. 

 

This might be true for someone who isn't good at bed fishing. People who are good at it, generally ignore the bucks and focus on the females. Heck, the good bed fisherman (especially in tournaments) skip over more beds than they fish because it's not worth it to target the males and smaller females. 

 

 

👍

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike

1 hour ago, gim said:

And yet, that is exactly what the OP is doing.  SMH

Yes, I'm out here legally ripping as many off beds as I can then hauling them around in my livewell for up to 8 hours. I've also done a tremendous amount of research on the topic, have a degree in environmental science, and know that pulling fish off the beds in my fisheries have no negative effect on the overall population in said fisheries. And yet, some keyboard warrior on the internet thinks he knows more about the science and wants to bash people doing nothing wrong. SMH

 

1 hour ago, Pat Brown said:

To be fair - he didn't make the rules and he is open to discussing this.  I think basically trying to be decent to the creatures is better than not trying to be decent to the creatures.

 

There are times of years I will actually use my live well to rejuvenate a fish - primarily summer when they can be worn out and the water doesn't have a ton of oxygen.

 

I don't haul them around all day but having a live well can be part of taking good care of the fish we catch if they're having a hard time after a long fight.

It's interesting that the two guys who live in the same region and have clearly done extensive research, are in agreement on how little effect bed fishing has on our populations. Like @Pat Brown, my opinions are equally based on scientific research and first hand experience. And two guys from up north are bashing it. Maybe things are different up north, I've never fished up there nor done any research specifically on northern fisheries. 

48 minutes ago, JHoss said:

Yes, I'm out here legally ripping as many off beds as I can then hauling them around in my livewell for up to 8 hours. I've also done a tremendous amount of research on the topic, have a degree in environmental science, and know that pulling fish off the beds in my fisheries have no negative effect on the overall population in said fisheries. And yet, some keyboard warrior on the internet thinks he knows more about the science and wants to bash people doing nothing wrong. SMH

 

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here.

 

I'm fine if anglers want to target bedding or spawning bass.  Just as long as they're immediately released.  Data has shown that fish caught off beds often swim right back to it upon release.

 

Hauling them around in a live well for a weigh in with the sole purpose of holding them up on camera posing for the glory of it is completely different; especially if there is a way to have a tournament without doing it, such as a C & R format.  You won't convince me that releasing them quickly isn't better than the latter, and anyone arguing that point looks like a fool.

 

I'm generally ok with weigh-in formats of tournaments as long as 1) the bass aren't spawning/on beds, and 2) its not midsummer when the water is bath tub warm, when mortality is at its highest.  Any time period outside of those two criteria is fine.

 

For years now, a C & R format for tournaments has shown to be completely successful and fair; walleye tournaments do it, muskie tournaments do it, kayak bass tournaments do it.  And yet, some bass tournaments continue to try and convince themselves that a live in person weigh in is perfectly fine in any given scenario.  Make it make sense.

 

2 minutes ago, gim said:

 

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here.

 

I'm fine if anglers want to target bedding or spawning bass.  Just as long as they're immediately released.  Data has shown that fish caught off beds often swim right back to it upon release.

 

Hauling them around in a live well for a weigh in with the sole purpose of holding them up on camera posing for the glory of it is completely different; especially if there is a way to have a tournament without doing it, such as a C & R format.  You won't convince me that releasing them quickly isn't better than the latter, and anyone arguing that point looks like a fool.

 

I'm generally ok with weigh-in formats of tournaments as long as 1) the bass aren't spawning/on beds, and 2) its not midsummer when the water is bath tub warm, when mortality is at its highest.  Any time period outside of those two criteria is fine.

 

For years now, a C & R format for tournaments has shown to be completely successful and fair; walleye tournaments do it, muskie tournaments do it, kayak bass tournaments do it.  And yet, some bass tournaments continue to try and convince themselves that a live in person weigh in is perfectly fine in any given scenario.  Make it make sense.

 

 

^This^ is also my position. 

One other thing I have no proof of but would be interested to see if anyone knows- I think the same bass spawn multiple times, and lay eggs on multiple beds. So my unproven theory is that even if you totally ruin one bed and none of the eggs successfully turn to fry, that doesn't mean the fish had no offspring for the entire season. Does anyone know if this has been studied? Seems like an easy thing to prove/disprove, I just don't know where to look for legit research on that and it's not really something I can observe first hand. 

Here's all the proof I need concerning bed fishing and you can confirm my results yourself.  Go fishing and see if there are any bass to be caught.  If you catch one then you know the bass are still there.  It's just that simple.  People have been bed fishing forever and people have been worried that it would hurt the bass population for as long as I can remember.  It hasn't happened!!!  

 

If we ever do manage to make bass extinct in a lake we can reintroduce them to the lake and not allow fishing in the lake for a year.  Bass are extremely good and reproducing.  

35 minutes ago, gim said:

 

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here.

 

I'm fine if anglers want to target bedding or spawning bass.  Just as long as they're immediately released.  Data has shown that fish caught off beds often swim right back to it upon release.

 

Hauling them around in a live well for a weigh in with the sole purpose of holding them up on camera posing for the glory of it is completely different; especially if there is a way to have a tournament without doing it, such as a C & R format.  You won't convince me that releasing them quickly isn't better than the latter, and anyone arguing that point looks like a fool.

 

I'm generally ok with weigh-in formats of tournaments as long as 1) the bass aren't spawning/on beds, and 2) its not midsummer when the water is bath tub warm, when mortality is at its highest.  Any time period outside of those two criteria is fine.

 

For years now, a C & R format for tournaments has shown to be completely successful and fair; walleye tournaments do it, muskie tournaments do it, kayak bass tournaments do it.  And yet, some bass tournaments continue to try and convince themselves that a live in person weigh in is perfectly fine in any given scenario.  Make it make sense.

 

I agree that if your goal is to reduce mortality as much as possible, then immediate release is the best option. But the point I'm trying to make is some mortality is good for the population. Most lakes (and I can absolutely confirm its true for the ones I fish), have an overpopulation of bass which is adversely affecting them. I do everything I can to ensure they're released in good shape and I'm not trying to kill bass when I take them to a weigh in, but I'm also not upset if some don't make it. Most of the fish that do die in the livewell, die because they were hooked deep- those fish are going to die whether they go straight back into the lake or not. 

 

We can't pretend like cheating doesn't happen in bass tournaments, and there's plenty of documented cases of people cheating in CPR style events. Bringing live fish to a weigh in doesn't eliminate cheating, but it does help reduce it. So if a few bass die, which helps the rest of the population, and it cuts down on a fraction of cheating, I'm all for live weigh ins. 

 

I'm sure there are some lakes out there struggling with recruitment, and for those lakes I would agree with placing regulations in effect that will help improve that recruitment. 

 

24 minutes ago, 12poundbass said:

Surprised we didn't get it shut down already, but seems like things are getting back to civility.