Ok, I fish the DD22 and the Bandit 700. It was my understanding that it was the length of the lip that gets it deeper. But the lips on my DD22's are longer than that of the Bandits. They are both in the 14' to 18' diving range. Is it because of the head slope on the Bandit? Does that pretty much make it a continuation of the lip?http://www.***.com/descpageHDCNORMAN-DD22S.htmle               http://www.***.com/descpageBANDCR-BSS.html

It also has to do with lip width.

Length of the bill

Placement of the eye in the bill

Shape of the bill

Angle of the bill

Am I the only one who thinks the bandit 700s look really stupid?  They may work, but I am not convinced to buy one.

Length of the bill

Placement of the eye in the bill

Shape of the bill

Angle of the bill

Ditto.

But, I have wondered about the scooped head shape too.

I'm also wondering what strategically placed and angled canards would do.  

Personally, I feel that angle of the bill is the next biggest factor in diving depth next to the length of the bill.

It's angle + cranking speed.  Sharper angle = deeper at the same cranking speed as shallow angle.  Increase the speed and sharper angle dives deeper.  If you go slow any angle will go shallower.

You also have to factor where the weight is placed in the belly, that's a biggie in diving depth. The slimmer the bait the deeper it will run. A lip that has some cup to it helps to get a bait deep. A thinner lip will get a bait deeper.

The slop head on the Bandit is acting like a lip extension.  

What about square vs. round shaped bills?

What about square vs. round shaped bills?

Have you ever seen a squared bill used for deep cranks ?

What about square vs. round shaped bills?

Have you ever seen a squared bill used for deep cranks ?

Sisson P-20

Big M knows what it takes to get em deep.  I have some cranks from Marty that get around the 25' range.

My experience -- the straighter the lip angle, the steeper it dives.  The overall surface area of the lip, line tie location, and also the ACTION effect the diving depth.  

You also have to factor where the weight is placed in the belly, that's a biggie in diving depth.

What baits sold on the market advertise this weight as to increase depth?

      That weight is counter balance, it helps load the bait during the casting for distance, not depth.  

I'm sure if you add enough weight to anything it will sink, and thats max depth for sure.

 

What about square vs. round shaped bills?

Have you ever seen a squared bill used for deep cranks ?

Got one too -Bomber Dance Fat Free Shad Deep -older version perhaps.

You also have to factor where the weight is placed in the belly, that's a biggie in diving depth.

What baits sold on the market advertise this weight as to increase depth?

      That weight is counter balance, it helps load the bait during the casting for distance, not depth.

I'm sure if you add enough weight to anything it will sink, and thats max depth for sure.

Dunno really, but it appears density would weigh in. Despite lip angle, really buoyant balsa doesn't run as deep as denser plastics -at least for the same amount of speed. Plus, most really deep divers weigh a lot more than shallows -partly for casting distance, but maybe for density too?

It's where the weight is placed that is the key to helping the bait get down to max depth.   Look at some of the older deep divers, Bagley's had a chunk of lead in the bill.   That was to give the bait the proper nose down attitude to reach it's max depth.   It doesn't matter what the manufacture advertises, look at what the changes made by the pro's to their cranks to get them deeper.   1 thing is chest weighting to make the bait stand up on it's nose.  

I can make a chunk of balsa run deeper than any bait on the market today.   This is based on three things, weight placement, body design, and lip length.   I mainly use cedar for deep divers because I don't have to add as much balast weight due to the higher density of the wood.  

Lets look at commercially available baits on the market.

 Not modified baits that pros or their reps do for them.

  Whats available to us is what should be discussed.

  Balsa wasn't used for max depth, Balsa deflects better off of objects, wood to be exact.

What baits are advertised that have the ball bearing inside that are used for depth?

If its a feature, it'll be marketed as such.    

Lead bills are not the same as weight inside the bait is it?

Hey Matt: some good points. I was looking at custom baits, nice paints, but really that is about all that separates them from quality Bagels and such.There are some incredible paint jobs, real artistic and realistic stuff. But in the end it's the action for me, and I found some Bagleys that rock!

Now Matt: if I want to throw a wood crank, other than balsa, what would you throw to get it down into 15 ft of water.

Good stuff here.

The point was to show there are a lot of factors that make a deep running crank reach max depth.   I've never seen a commerical bait advertise that it's chest weighted.   Still does not change the fact that weighting has an effect on diving depth, as well as lip length, width, line tie position and body style.   You have to have all the parts to make a deep diver reach it's max depth.

or something I am going to go out and learn next week with a friend who does this.

Do it the other way around: use a balsa crank and C rig it, gonna give it a shot.

Lead bills are not the same as weight inside the bait is it?

No, not the same. What its doing is having the bill/bait sit at a steeper angle down to get the bait moving down deeper faster. There are a few co's out that do this. I think Bandit has a series with a bb or something in the bill for this. The ballast weight can control depth by moving it in the lure by changing the angle the bait sits in the water. This alters the angle the bill/bait will run. It also gets the bait to sit up correctly. You have to figure in buoyancy. More buoyant the bait the shallower it will go. Simple resistance. Same with line diameter.

here are alot of the factors that lead to depth.

Body shape

length of bill

angle of bill(one of the biggest)

shape of bill

Density/weight of lure

buoyancy

line diameter

line tie

These have to be in the right coorilation to one another to achieve maximum depth and action.  

I have some Rebel Deep Wee-R's, and I also have some Rebel Xtra-Deep Wee-R's -the difference being a bearing molded into the plastic lip out beyond the line tie.

Length of the bill

Placement of the eye in the bill

Shape of the bill

Angle of the bill

This is about as simple as it gets when a bait comes out of the box.

The factors not mentioned in getting a bait to max depth straight out of the box.

Line diameter(size)

casting distance

Rod position during retrieve

All important factors on getting a baits to max running depth.

Length of the bill

Placement of the eye in the bill

Shape of the bill

Angle of the bill

This is about as simple as it gets when a bait comes out of the box.

The factors not mentioned in getting a bait to max depth straight out of the box.

Line diameter(size)

casting distance

Rod position during retrieve

All important factors on getting a baits to max running depth.

SON OF A %^#!#!!!!!!!! You mean you are supposed to take them out of the box:: NO WONDER I HAVE BEEN HAVING PROBLEMS!!!!!!!

Matt, ok maybe I went to far toward the custom side with the weighting and weight placement.   Can't help it, that's what I do.

The reason the Bandit is rated for the same depth as a DD22 is the flat head, acts like a longer lip on that bait.    Sorry for all the confusion that I caused in this thread.