98 replies to this topic

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

IMO the benefit of carbon fiber graphite over fiberglass is the strength to weight ratio. Scrims, resins and processes all factor in as well to put together a high performance rod. If the end result is a more powerful blank at a lower weight, it stands to reason that the recovery speed and hence the ability to transmit feel will improve. "Sensitivity" as well as "balance" are two terms that are over thought, they are part, but only part, of the big picture and are subjective. Perception is reality and each persons perception is different from the next. Long story short, you are right that claims of im proved sensitivity are to a degree unprovable and can be considered puffing by manufacturers.

[J Francho]

I think Gary has ham hands. Or at least, too much time on his hands.

But seriously, interesting post. Doesn't change what rods I'm going to use. Just have someone put the rod tip to their voice box and hum. If you can feel it, it's plenty sensitive.

[lmoore]

Great idea for a thread, lots of hard work already put into it.

The 2 main factors in sensitivity of a rod are flexibility and weight, which is were the graphite rating comes in. I 100% agree that there's little to be gained from IM6 vs. IM7, and all that, because that's just a label the company uses. Graphite ratings (tensile modulus) for fishing rods are in the 10's of millions psi, and there's no correlation between the label one compny uses for a rating and the label the next compny uses.

The overall purpose of tensile modulus is a comparison between flexibility and weight. As the rating goes up, a rod of similiar power can be made lighter, and will have slightly higher flexibility. The thing is, even though the rod is lighter and should transmit vibrations better, the increased flexibility serves to dampen the vibrations as they move along the rod, so you don't get the full effect of the decrease in mass. You still gain some sensitivity by using a higher tensile modulus graphite, but it's not as huge of a difference as it might appear due to the flex increase.

Now that I've rambled on about stuff nobody cares about.....I've used some of the best rods in the world and still trust my fingers on the line a LOT more than my fingers on the rod!

[McAlpine]

Just a little something I was thinking about that really shows an example of what we are talking about here. I am certainly guilty of paying way to much for equipment at times just because I wanted something. However; to this day my favorite spinning rod and what I consider to be my best combination of "Sensitive, strong, good backbone and soft tip" which is what i use for unweighted soft plastic fluke fishing in the top portion of the water collumn is a 20 year old Daiwa Samuri powermesh. I honestly dont even know what it is made out of and if I remember right it cost me around $25-50 at WalMart years ago.

The rod is a medium heavy, but you would never know it by looking at it, thin rod but strong backbone, has a fast tip but soft enough to toss a light bait. However at only 6 ft, with a non-cork light handle the rod is very light and with a medium sized reel balances so well it feels like it weighs nothing. Combine that with a palm swell at the grip and what you get is an extremely well balanced stiff rod with lots of surface area where it connects to my hand. Best dang spinning rod ever.

[craww]

Great thread. I've wondered about palming baitcasters. 90% of your hand is actually touching the reel, not the rod. I've heard guys mention that reels made predominately of certain materials transmit vibration better...Could it be the lighter magnesium, C6, carbon, etc help you percieve the "pull" better?

[BigMoneyGrip]

What we perceive as sensitivity will come down to surface contact. The more surface, the better the sensitivity. If we take two of the same blanks and use different diameter grips, the one with more surface to hold will feel the best.

I like the "Megaphone Effect" grip that Airrus is using on their new KW Nano Fusion rod. Another thing they are doing is using a "hard" material for the grip. I've often wondered if cork and EVA would damp some of the vibrations of the rod.

I don't know, just my thoughts.

[roadwarrior]

Well, I'm not buying this story, I think we're reading too much into it. I'm not arguing the fact that there is certainly a degree of diminishing return, but sensitivity is not just a matter of perception. Rather than placing the focus on just the materials used in constructing the blank, the taper and action of the rod is of greater significance.

For "moving" presentations the quality of the rod is not as critical as it is for bottom techniques. For treble hooks I want a soft tip and a balanced rig that feels light, whether that is actually the case or not. I don't fish Ugly Sticks or Rhino rods, but perhaps they "will do" for a steady retrieve with a Rat-L-Trap or square bill.

However, when we look at rods for bottom contact, jigs or soft plastics, it's a different ballgame. #1 is balance or the illusion of weightlessness; #2 is power& action; #3 is the quality of the components and craftsmanship. I want a fast or extra fast rod for single hooks, except for live bait. For these techniques. sensitivity is crucial.

On a different note, and as much as I really hate braid, for soft plastics and jigs, swiching to braid might be the answer to improving any equipment you are using. My jig fishing has improved significantly since making the switch.

[Red Earth]

i've always thought the sensitivity thing was overrated. Sure there may be differences in the sensitivity of different rods, but in my experiences, its so minimal you almost cant even tell. I've said as much lately that i dont buy into it either. Other people can tell me about their sensitive $100+ rods all day long, i'll just be like "ok" while im outfishing them or doing just as well as them with my ugly stiks and other cheap shakespeare rods.

Also, i never really understood those ugly split grip rods i see all the time. i hate the feel of them. Whats the point of having a split grip handle if youre holding the rod up by the reel and palming the reel? doesnt make sense to me. please dont tell me its a sensitivity thing, as your hand is above the split grip when holding the rod...

[Red Earth]

Well, I'm not buying this story, I think we're reading too much into it. I'm not arguing the fact that there is certainly a degree of diminishing return, but sensitivity is not just a matter of perception. Rather than placing the focus on just the materials used in constructing the blank, the taper and action of the rod is of greater significance.

For "moving" presentations the quality of the rod is not as critical as it is for bottom techniques. For treble hooks I want a soft tip and a balanced rig that feels light, whether that is actually the case or not. I don't fish Ugly Sticks or Rhino rods, but perhaps they "will do" for a steady retrieve with a Rat-L-Trap or square bill.

However, when we look at rods for bottom contact, jigs or soft plastics, it's a different ballgame. #1 is balance or the illusion of weightlessness; #2 is power& action; #3 is the quality of the components and craftsmanship. I want a fast or extra fast rod for single hooks, except for live bait. For these techniques. sensitivity is crucial.

On a different note, and as much as I really hate braid, for soft plastics and jigs, swiching to braid might be the answer to improving any equipment you are using. My jig fishing has improved significantly since making the switch.

the thing is, i dont really care about any of this stuff as i catch plenty of fish on my cheap "non-sensitive" rods. all i need to feel is the bite, not the bottom. why does anyone need to feel the bottom so bad, especially if you got electronics to tell you whats on the bottom?

[lmoore]

i've always thought the sensitivity thing was overrated. Sure there may be differences in the sensitivity of different rods, but in my experiences, its so minimal you almost cant even tell. I've said as much lately that i dont buy into it either. Other people can tell me about their sensitive $100+ rods all day long, i'll just be like "ok" while im outfishing them or doing just as well as them with my ugly stiks and other cheap shakespeare rods.

Also, i never really understood those ugly split grip rods i see all the time. i hate the feel of them. Whats the point of having a split grip handle if youre holding the rod up by the reel and palming the reel? doesnt make sense to me. please dont tell me its a sensitivity thing, as your hand is above the split grip when holding the rod...

the thing is, i dont really care about any of this stuff as i catch plenty of fish on my cheap "non-sensitive" rods. all i need to feel is the bite, not the bottom. why does anyone need to feel the bottom so bad, especially if you got electronics to tell you whats on the bottom?

Post 1, can't tell difference in sensitivity.
Post 2, can't feel the bottom.


The new electroncis go a long way, but I find the more in-tuned I am with what's going on on the other end of my line, the better I fish(regarding contact baits obviously). I've had times fishing where the best way to get a bit was to pull a jig along a sandy bottom until I hit a rock line, pop it over the first rock, and let it sit. The fishing were sitting right on that change in bottom content. You would be able to see the change was there on your electronics, but you'd never be able to tell if your bait was there or not if you can't feel the bottom. All it does is increase your efficiency.

[smalljaw67]

i've always thought the sensitivity thing was overrated. Sure there may be differences in the sensitivity of different rods, but in my experiences, its so minimal you almost cant even tell. I've said as much lately that i dont buy into it either. Other people can tell me about their sensitive $100+ rods all day long, i'll just be like "ok" while im outfishing them or doing just as well as them with my ugly stiks and other cheap shakespeare rods.

Also, i never really understood those ugly split grip rods i see all the time. i hate the feel of them. Whats the point of having a split grip handle if youre holding the rod up by the reel and palming the reel? doesnt make sense to me. please dont tell me its a sensitivity thing, as your hand is above the split grip when holding the rod...

Split grips are done for 2 reasons, the first and foremost reason is cosmetic, it gives the rod a modern look and while you probably don't care too much with how your rod looks there are other who do and even try to match up reels and rods that look good together. The second reason is to shave weight off the rod, weight is the focus point now as you can see every manufacturer is making light weight reels, split grip rods with micro guides, and I know they claim you get better casting with the use of micros the fact remains it was done more or less to reduce weight. Most good rods are under 5oz with a great deal under 4oz.

[craww]

While we're on semantics lol...
Keeping the thought in regards to the "pull" of a fish biting, dragging up against a stump, etc. You could argue that a high end ultra light is the most sensitive rod there is (the TT crew seems to think so also). With that said if everything were apples to apples in action, components, etc, would a heavier powered rod be LESS sensitive than a lighter counterpart? I'm sure as far as bass gear goes it isnt drastic. But I think it would at least transmit lighter "pulls" or bites better.

[J Francho]

There guys that look at the tip of their rod to "feel" the bite by seeing the tip shake. These guys like braid, and soft tip actions. Others can feel the bump in their hands, or see the bow in the line hop. Those guys like stout rods and fluoro. These are generalizations, but after a couple years teaching fishing, you pick up on these differences. You pick the gear that suits your style.

[McAlpine]

Franco, that makes sense. My observations above are based upon my style which is generally tight line and I like to feel a bass pick a bait up in it's mouth.

[Red Earth]

Post 1, can't tell difference in sensitivity.
Post 2, can't feel the bottom.


The new electroncis go a long way, but I find the more in-tuned I am with what's going on on the other end of my line, the better I fish(regarding contact baits obviously). I've had times fishing where the best way to get a bit was to pull a jig along a sandy bottom until I hit a rock line, pop it over the first rock, and let it sit. The fishing were sitting right on that change in bottom content. You would be able to see the change was there on your electronics, but you'd never be able to tell if your bait was there or not if you can't feel the bottom. All it does is increase your efficiency.

first, youre kinda twisting my words there into something theyre not. i said the difference in sensitivity is very minimal in my opinion. basically it comes down to this, i cant justify spending $100+ or more on a rod because its "more sensitive" than my $30 dollar rod. Since the difference in sensitivity is so minimal to me, i'm going to save my money on rods and spend it elsewhere...

second, i didnt say i couldnt feel the bottom. just that i dont really need to, all i need to feel is the bite. i can feel the bottom just fine with my cheaper rods. i can tell when im going through a grass bed or a rock pile, etc. and if im going up hill or down hill over humps and all that stuff, but ultimately it doesnt tell me anything useful other than there is structure there.

look, for me, fishing is not rocket science and i dont make it rocket science like some people do. i have no need to over-complicate things and worry about minuscule details. i dont go by the 'book' like some people. if i was fishing for money it might be different, i might would study things more down to the finest details. but i dont fish tournaments. i fish for peace of mind and relaxation, a $200 reel on a $150 dollar rod isnt going to give me those things. if you can justify that kind of expensive gear then good for you, but i cant justify it. i've been fishing all my life and i never needed a high dollar rod or reel to catch a fish, nor did my parents or grandparents...

and another thing about the sensitivity of high dollar rods, how come those guys on tv using them cant feel the bite when the underwater camera man is yelling at them to set the hook?

Split grips are done for 2 reasons, the first and foremost reason is cosmetic, it gives the rod a modern look and while you probably don't care too much with how your rod looks there are other who do and even try to match up reels and rods that look good together. The second reason is to shave weight off the rod, weight is the focus point now as you can see every manufacturer is making light weight reels, split grip rods with micro guides, and I know they claim you get better casting with the use of micros the fact remains it was done more or less to reduce weight. Most good rods are under 5oz with a great deal under 4oz.

thanks for explaining that, i always wondered about that. the weight thing did cross my mind, but thats it...