corey90 Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 is it nessisasry to wrap the guide cant you just put the thread finish on and be good. I ask this not because I cant wrap a rod I've wrapped plenty but I'm building a ultra light rod that seems like it would be a pain to wrap for me. I'm using the rod for panfish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super User MN Fisher Posted May 25 Super User Share Posted May 25 Are you talking just 'gluing' the guide with the epoxy finish? Nope - the thread wrapping is what does the majority of the holding - the epoxy finish is mainly there to protect the thread...it doesn't supply much in the way of holding the guide to the rod. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Valley Tackle Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 Epoxy finish is not structural. Wraps are required to adhere the guides. Wrapping ultra light tips is challenging. Welcome to rod building Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super User MickD Posted May 26 Super User Share Posted May 26 I have heard of using Permagloss to successfully attach guides without thread wraps. https://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,475815,475815#msg-475815 Although, if using Permagloss, one can get a very light wrap with thread because PG is so thin it's almost weightless. Unlike epoxy. Use very good ventilation! But it won't look like epoxy, will look more like old varnished guide wraps on cane fly rods. I respectfully disagree that it's the thread that does the majority of the holding. If this were true one could not adjust the alignment of guides after wrapping and before applying epoxy. But every builder tweaks the alignment on many of the guides before applying epoxy. After epoxy they cannot be moved. The combination of thread and epoxy forms a composite similar to plywood where the strength of the composite is greater than that of either component. If serious, give it a try. If one comes off, the line will hold it so it can be retrieved and then wrapped for more security. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulVE64 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 The forces applied on the quide dictate that alot of flexural plasticity is required do to torque on the rod. Most often it is the wraps but some types of glue are honestly magical. So it could be either but I wouldnt trust the glue alone if I could add wraps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Catignani Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 I think the thread and the epoxy finish work hand in hand...much in the same way that fiberglass and resin do. Finish or thread alone will fail after a short time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super User MickD Posted May 27 Super User Share Posted May 27 1 hour ago, Chris Catignani said: think the thread and the epoxy finish work hand in hand...much in the same way that fiberglass and resin do. Exactly! 1 hour ago, Chris Catignani said: Finish or thread alone will fail after a short time. Thread only yes, but not necessarily so for the right adhesive. Especially considering this question was posed for a light power rod. I think it's worth a try based on previously reported success. I personally don't think the weight savings is that important to justify my taking the risk, but that's just my opinion. No data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoonplugger1 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 Do you believe picture evidence? Permagloss only wrap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Head Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 How difficult is permagloss to remove if applied to wraps? Would it make replacing a guide annoying, turn it into a major ordeal, or just be nearly impossible to do cleanly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super User casts_by_fly Posted May 28 Super User Share Posted May 28 7 hours ago, Lead Head said: How difficult is permagloss to remove if applied to wraps? Would it make replacing a guide annoying, turn it into a major ordeal, or just be nearly impossible to do cleanly? About the same as any other finish. Its a little harder of a finish compared to epoxy, but in both cases if you are trying to take a guide off you have to cut through it with a razor blade. Some of it will chip right off the blank with a fingernail but some will have to be scraped with a blade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Catignani Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 On 5/27/2024 at 1:23 PM, spoonplugger1 said: Do you believe picture evidence? Permagloss only wrap. Yeah...yeah...yeah. I've seen that picture before on another forum about 15 years ago. I wonder why people are still using thread? Spencer...that picture proves nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super User MickD Posted May 29 Super User Share Posted May 29 4 hours ago, Chris Catignani said: I wonder why people are still using thread? Spencer...that picture proves nothing. Some people are still using thread because they like the appearance and they believe it's a more reliable design. I am one of those. However to argue that the picture proves nothing is IMO untrue. It proves that it may be possible to have a workable rod using only Permagloss. Unless it's a phony picture. But I've heard separately of doing exactly what is portrayed in the picture. I repeat my opinion that there is little to lose, especially on a light powered rod, so the OP'er should give it a try. If I were to try it I would rough up the guide foot with fine sandpaper, make sure there were no contaminants on the blank and guide, and give it a try. (Don't use any liquid as a final prep step.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super User J Francho Posted May 29 Super User Share Posted May 29 I had to look up flexural. Why isn't there a fiber reinforced tape that looks good for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoonplugger1 Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 Chris, They are using thread, using epoxy, using larger guides than necessary, and a myriad of other things because they don't know there are other options, because it is out of their comfort zone, because it doesn't look like every rod they have seen or used before, because they don't want or need to try something new even though they know it wasn't that long ago, what they are using now was far from the norm and it was the rod builders and the people willing to try something new, that got them the rod they now use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super User MickD Posted May 29 Super User Share Posted May 29 53 minutes ago, J Francho said: Why isn't there a fiber reinforced tape that looks good for this? There is a tape type material coming. Probably will eliminate wrapping on "factory" rods. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Catignani Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 4 hours ago, spoonplugger1 said: Chris, They are using thread, using epoxy, using larger guides than necessary, and a myriad of other things because they don't know there are other options, because it is out of their comfort zone, because it doesn't look like every rod they have seen or used before, because they don't want or need to try something new even though they know it wasn't that long ago, what they are using now was far from the norm and it was the rod builders and the people willing to try something new, that got them the rod they now use. OK...got it. I spoke too hastily....and apologize for the harsh tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Catignani Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 15 hours ago, J Francho said: I had to look up flexural. Why isn't there a fiber reinforced tape that looks good for this? There is a company called RodTeck that is selling a carbon tape along with a UV resin. Fishing Rod Repair Kit | Fishing Rod Guide Repair Kits – RodTeck It seems like a good idea...but, and I have been using UV resin (on other stuff) for a while now, UV resin is nowhere near the strength of epoxy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoonplugger1 Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 The epoxy we use is developed to be in the potting resin category, it is not particularly strong nor is a very good adhesive, if you have removed a guide you have seen this. Going back to Permagloss, it is a very tough material, light, flexible and a good adhesive, you can pull out a new razor blade and easily remove all the epoxied guides on a rod with it, good luck doing that with a Permagloss finished rod and it's harder to remove the thread afterwards. the finish is light and thin and more easily absorbed into the thread, if you want a thicker application, let it set for a half hour and then apply it, I use this method only on my final coat though, I want the thin, absorbing, sealing, first coats before doing this. I have never seen a pulled guide on a Permaglossed rod. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Catignani Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 My hats off to the people who actually have the data and the science behind their claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super User J Francho Posted May 31 Super User Share Posted May 31 Not too sure that's unique to the rod building community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Catignani Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 ¼ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super User J Francho Posted May 31 Super User Share Posted May 31 There are opinions wherever people are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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