Losing fish on a short rod

[raydomz]

Problem:

Losing large fish on a shorter rod

 

Background:

Our local river holds some beautiful smallmouth which we have enjoyed fishing without much issue. Due to the confined nature of the system I picked up a z-man Ned Rod - the 5’4” model - hoping that the unique blend of short shaft and strong backbone would be great for getting around the woods and overhanging trees and also bringing in SM and LM. In terms of ease of travel, it’s perfect. Where I’m struggling with it is keeping large fish pinned. 
 

I am applying the same technique I use with my other rods - keep tension on the rod after the hookset, work the fish toward the bank, and keep the tip down to keep them from jumping & shaking. I have my drag set low enough that they are able to pull some line out as I reel. I’m not muscling them in.
 

Last night I lost 4 in a row. Schooled up in the same spot. 2 jumped and shook, 2 shook underwater as I tried to change direction on them to tire them out.

 

One thing I considered was the lure - a yamatanuki on a ned. It’s a thick little bait - maybe it’s not getting good hook penetration? This may be a moot point though considering I recently lost two large LM on this rod, the only difference in bait was that it was a small craw on a ned.
 

I think this is a fisherman problem and not a gear problem. Those of you running smaller gear, light line, etc - how do you handle large fish? Let them run? Work them quicker?

[Alex from GA]

I use a 5'6" spinning rod with 6 lb mono on my kayak in small rivers.  One thing I do is pinch my barb 1/2 or more down and sharpen my hook.  I also skin hook the worm to make sure it comes out of the worm easily.  I use a 1/0 worm hook with a finesse worm.  If using a trick worm I use a 2/0 hook.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Good luck/skill.

[islandbass]

I think this might be  a case of win some, lose some, especially if this is uncharacteristic for you. 😎

[FryDog62]

It could be the braid if that’s what you’re using. Smallmouth, especially in current, will pull and turn several ways until there is a momentary lapse in tension and either spit the hook, jump, or both.  Mono/fluoro act more like a rubber band and it’s harder for the fish to get any slack. Slack, even just a split second, is a killer - - 

[Rucksack]

I almost exclusively run finesse presentations, and only fish a spinning rod. I also fished the Ned Rig a fair bit this year. My guess is you're probably correct on hook penetration.

 

Though food for thought. I recently lost a smaller fish on a Ned and it was in a situation where I had to point my rod tip down to bring the fish in, which is something I never do. I always keep my tip up, because I rarely see aerobatics where I fish in North Carolina. I think it was just enough of a loss of tension that he wiggled off the Ned. One instance a pattern doesn't make, so take that with a major grain of salt.

[raydomz]

1 hour ago, Alex from GA said:

I use a 5'6" spinning rod with 6 lb mono on my kayak in small rivers.  One thing I do is pinch my barb 1/2 or more down and sharpen my hook.  I also skin hook the worm to make sure it comes out of the worm easily.  I use a 1/0 worm hook with a finesse worm.  If using a trick worm I use a 2/0 hook.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Good luck/skill.

Can you please explain what you mean about the barb?
 

1 hour ago, islandbass said:

I think this might be  a case of win some, lose some, especially if this is uncharacteristic for you. 😎

My kids think I’m losing skills 🫣
 

36 minutes ago, FryDog62 said:

It could be the braid if that’s what you’re using. Smallmouth, especially in current, will pull and turn several ways until there is a momentary lapse in tension and either spit the hook, jump, or both.  Mono/fluoro act more like a rubber band and it’s harder for the fish to get any slack. Slack, even just a split second, is a killer - - 

Ah, ok, now this could be interesting to experiment with. I have used braid to flouro exclusively (8lb braid, 6lb leader), but I do have a couple spools of 4lb flouro I could try with this setup. 
 

35 minutes ago, Rucksack said:

I almost exclusively run finesse presentations, and only fish a spinning rod. I also fished the Ned Rig a fair bit this year. My guess is you're probably correct on hook penetration.

 

Though food for thought. I recently lost a smaller fish on a Ned and it was in a situation where I had to point my rod tip down to bring the fish in, which is something I never do. I always keep my tip up, because I rarely see aerobatics where I fish in North Carolina. I think it was just enough of a loss of tension that he wiggled off the Ned. One instance a pattern doesn't make, so take that with a major grain of salt.

I am in the same boat. I am going to try rigging the hook shallow along the side of the plastic so that less of the body is under the hook gap. I’ll report back on that.

[Alex from GA]

Bend the barb not all the way down to the shank of the hook, leave enough barb to hold the worm.

[raydomz]

19 minutes ago, Alex from GA said:

Bend the barb not all the way down to the shank of the hook, leave enough barb to hold the worm.

Ahh ok, thank you. I could see this working with a regular ned worm. 

[Bankc]

If it's not just bad luck, I'd say it might be the hook penetration.  With a shorter rod, you have less leverage (a smaller lever, if you will), so you need to be a little bit more forceful with the hookset to generate the same penetration force.  Once hooked, the shorter rod really shouldn't have any effect. 

 

Also, I've found it's usually best not to fight fish if you can avoid it.  The more you "let the fish tire themselves out" the more opportunity you give them to loosen and eventually throw the hook.  I'll occasionally set the hook and immediately realize I didn't get the hookset I wanted.  And I've found the best way to get the fish in with a bad hookset is to just reel like crazy and, if you can, ski them across the top of the water.  It's not always possible to do, but in my opinion, it's the safest method at that point.  Especially if you're in a situation where you're more likely to get the hook thrown than the line broken. 

 

I also don't subscribe to the theory that keeping your rod tip down keeps them from jumping.  In my experience, bass jump just as easily no matter where your rod is pointed.  Maybe if they're right next to the boat and you've only got a few feet of line out, it could help then.  But otherwise, I believe it hurts more than helps because it allows for less bend in the rod, which means less tension on the line.  It's kind of one of those old wives tales where people keep repeating it because people keep hearing it repeated, so everyone blindly assumes it must be true.  I mean, I could be wrong.  It's not like I've conducted scientific research into the matter.  But my personal experience tells me it's not true. 

 

 

[raydomz]

19 minutes ago, Bankc said:

If it's not just bad luck, I'd say it might be the hook penetration.  With a shorter rod, you have less leverage (a smaller lever, if you will), so you need to be a little bit more forceful with the hookset to generate the same penetration force.  Once hooked, the shorter rod really shouldn't have any effect. 

 

Also, I've found it's usually best not to fight fish if you can avoid it.  The more you "let the fish tire themselves out" the more opportunity you give them to loosen and eventually throw the hook.  I'll occasionally set the hook and immediately realize I didn't get the hookset I wanted.  And I've found the best way to get the fish in with a bad hookset is to just reel like crazy and, if you can, ski them across the top of the water.  It's not always possible to do, but in my opinion, it's the safest method at that point.  Especially if you're in a situation where you're more likely to get the hook thrown than the line broken. 

 

I also don't subscribe to the theory that keeping your rod tip down keeps them from jumping.  In my experience, bass jump just as easily no matter where your rod is pointed.  Maybe if they're right next to the boat and you've only got a few feet of line out, it could help then.  But otherwise, I believe it hurts more than helps because it allows for less bend in the rod, which means less tension on the line.  It's kind of one of those old wives tales where people keep repeating it because people keep hearing it repeated, so everyone blindly assumes it must be true.  I mean, I could be wrong.  It's not like I've conducted scientific research into the matter.  But my personal experience tells me it's not true. 

 

 

I appreciate the insight on this and I think you raise some points I need to consider. 
 

The rod is extremely sensitive and setting the hook felt nearly identical to my other rods (all in the 6’6”-7’ range) but I’m going to add a little more umfph to the hook sets in the future. 
 

The reason I’ve opted to work the fish a bit is because of their aggressiveness (they’re a wild bunch) and their size. But a few more clicks of drag and more retrieve speed is worth trying. 
 

Lastly on the tip-down idea…

Ive wondered about the effectiveness of this myself. I have never given *not* doing it an honest try. One caveat I want to mention though is that many of the spots where they school up are only ~10’ away from where I’m standing so the amount of line I have out is minimal. 
 

Going to take a lot of this out with me tomorrow and land some. 🤘

[WRB]

1. Accurately set your reel drag at 2lbs using dead weight* with 6 lb line. 
2. Never reel against the drag when it’s slipping using a spinning reel.

3. Use the reel set with firm rod sweep and keep pressure on the bass. Lowering the rod tip to reduce bass jumping doesn’t work it does allow slack line to occur, not good!

4. If the soft plastic is slipping down into the hook gap consider using Owner Cover Shot worm hook or Finesse Twistlock Finesse hook.

Tom

* 2 ea 1 pint plastic drinking water bottles in plastic bag weighs 2 lbs. hook you line to the bag and lift until drag starts to slip.

[raydomz]

1 hour ago, WRB said:

1. Accurately set your reel drag at 2lbs using dead weight* with 6 lb line. 
2. Never reel against the drag when it’s slipping using a spinning reel.

3. Use the reel set with firm rod sweep and keep pressure on the bass. Lowering the rod tip to reduce bass jumping doesn’t work it does allow slack line to occur, not good!

4. If the soft plastic is slipping down into the hook gap consider using Owner Cover Shot worm hook or Finesse Twistlock Finesse hook.

Tom

* 2 ea 1 pint plastic drinking water bottles in plastic bag weighs 2 lbs. hook you line to the bag and lift until drag starts to slip.

Thank you for all of these points, Tom. I’m not sure how many others would care to admit it, but I have never set the drag as suggested - I’m going to try that. 
 

Do you mind expanding on #2? 
 

Thanks!

[scaleface]

I lose a lot of fish on neds and havent figured out why. When I switch to a tube I land them.

[raydomz]

Ok all, let’s start with the good and end with the bad…

 

I took a little lunch trip down to the same spot that started this conversation. I spooled up 4lb invizx, set my drag to ~1lb using a bag and a can of beer, and only brought out neds.

 

It wasn’t but 5 minutes before I landed my first.

What was different? Firstly, I kept the rod tip up - no jumpers. Secondly, as someone mentioned, I could feel a stretch in the line that simply was not there with my braid-to-leader setup. The tension felt solid each time I pulled one in. Bonus, I forgot how silent straight flouro could be. These changes in approach have restored my confidence in myself 😃 thank you all for the input and ideas!
 

Now the bad news…

I know it will sound crazy, but this happened with a fish on, with no change to the drag (didn’t need it! Thanks @WRB), no excessive struggle, and I didn’t even lose the lure…

 

I am hoping that this is an exception and not the norm for these rods. I reached out to TW who is going to get it sorted. But I hope the replacement doesn’t suffer the same fate. 

[33oldtimer]

Thick plastics can be difficult to get good hook sets. It is easier to get a better hook set with a longer rod, especially on weedless lures. On open hook lures I've not noticed any problem with hook sets. I've caught several nice fish on open hooks with a skimpy little dock demon.

[raydomz]

1 hour ago, 33oldtimer said:

Thick plastics can be difficult to get good hook sets. It is easier to get a better hook set with a longer rod, especially on weedless lures. On open hook lures I've not noticed any problem with hook sets. I've caught several nice fish on open hooks with a skimpy little dock demon.

Given the amount of cover in my river, guards are a must. But I have adjusted the way I hook this particular bait to not go through the center, but just outside of it. This puts more of the body of the worm off the back of the hook and leaves more gap. Has worked so far - the only downside is yamamoto plastics don’t have the best tear resistance. Have to use a few today. 

[Bird]

I've used a 6'4 UL rod for Neds and dropshot for years without issue...... always pinned in the top of the mouth.

 

15# braid to 8# flouro leader.

 

5'4 rod seems short. Imo

Less rod length = less available arc during the fight, keeping the hook pinned.

[Fishing_Rod]

Greetings All,

I use rods of 5.5 ft - 4.5 ft. They transport well in the cab of my truck and also when I'm using kayak. There is not too much sticking out when they are laying on deck or when they are vertical in the rod holders.

 

All of the rods are either Ultra Lite or Lite action rods. Yes, you don't have as much leverage as a longer rod so you do have to be diligent with your technique in maintain line tension at all times. Fortunately the UL action provides some forgiveness.

 

Regarding the drag setting, I tend to adjust based on how the rod loads up. Because of the variation in the rod action I use I'll make accommodations from that response. Some of the "lite" action are on the stiff response side of things so those don't get as much dialed in.

 

Sharp fine wire hooks help. Those are my first preference. Mashing the barb contributes too. I do when I actually think about, which is most of the time. I simply clamp on it using my pocket multi-tool pliers. I started doing that when trout fishing to aid in easier release. I then realized the improved hookup. Yup, old dogs can learn.

 

Minimizing the amount of hook tip embedded helps too. I rarely deep dive the hook into the soft plastic, It is not needed for my style of angling with UL gear. Since I'm using 4 pound mono I've only got so much to work with. Which is my approach to this. Your mileage may vary.

 

Good Luck to you and others. Some helpful tips shared, keep them going! Be well and Cheers!

[bulldog1935]

"Keep drag low" is the problem - that counts as handing control to the fish.  

Set your drag properly - 1/4 weakest link.  Keep the rod low for full drag and to use the butt for fish control, tip high for protecting leader and small hook in fish mouth.  Always bow to jumping fish, that is, drop the rod and ease your arm toward the fish.  

I agree w/ @Bankc about not rushing the fish in river current - use enough pressure to control the fish, let it wind a bit in the current before hauling it in.  

 

[WRB]

On 9/4/2024 at 2:54 PM, raydomz said:

Thank you for all of these points, Tom. I’m not sure how many others would care to admit it, but I have never set the drag as suggested - I’m going to try that. 
 

Do you mind expanding on #2? 
 

Thanks!

Reeling against the drag slipping creates more friction that wears the drag disk and  twisting the line tight.

Tom

[learnin]

My fishing is for Lg Mouths in reservoirs so its not the same fish or conditions as what you're doing and I don't have current to deal with but I agree Bulldog 1935 that  a low drag setting could be a big part of the problem. I'm using a med. 6ft spinning rod, 10Lb braid, 6 or 8 lb fluro leader and a  std 1/10th oz Ned Rig set up with the hook bent all the way back to where it's barbless.  Drag is set to where it can be moved but it takes some pressure.  Hook sets are easy with that barbless wire hook. and as long as I can keep the pressure on I don't lose them regardless of size.

[learnin]

Meant to say I agree with Bulldog 1935.

[raydomz]

On 9/5/2024 at 9:25 PM, Fishing_Rod said:

Greetings All,

I use rods of 5.5 ft - 4.5 ft. They transport well in the cab of my truck and also when I'm using kayak. There is not too much sticking out when they are laying on deck or when they are vertical in the rod holders.

 

All of the rods are either Ultra Lite or Lite action rods. Yes, you don't have as much leverage as a longer rod so you do have to be diligent with your technique in maintain line tension at all times. Fortunately the UL action provides some forgiveness.

 

Regarding the drag setting, I tend to adjust based on how the rod loads up. Because of the variation in the rod action I use I'll make accommodations from that response. Some of the "lite" action are on the stiff response side of things so those don't get as much dialed in.

 

Sharp fine wire hooks help. Those are my first preference. Mashing the barb contributes too. I do when I actually think about, which is most of the time. I simply clamp on it using my pocket multi-tool pliers. I started doing that when trout fishing to aid in easier release. I then realized the improved hookup. Yup, old dogs can learn.

 

Minimizing the amount of hook tip embedded helps too. I rarely deep dive the hook into the soft plastic, It is not needed for my style of angling with UL gear. Since I'm using 4 pound mono I've only got so much to work with. Which is my approach to this. Your mileage may vary.

 

Good Luck to you and others. Some helpful tips shared, keep them going! Be well and Cheers!

I appreciate you sharing this info. I have been anxiously awaiting my replacement rod, and in the meantime have been using my 6’6” M tatula for neds/free rigs. I started with setting the drag properly, smashed the barbs on my hooks, and have been more diligent about line tension…which I thought I already was, but the lack of fish lost on the jump tells me I may have been wrong about that. 
 

I did notice that my finer ewg’s I use for free rigs set more reliably so I ordered some Ned’s with ewg’s to see how those fare. 
 

At the end of the day, I’ve noticed something: I really was not paying as much attention to the details as I thought I was. Since starting this conversation and approaching SM with the advice given in this thread I’ve noticed a lot more and caught more reliably. You all rock!

On 9/6/2024 at 8:35 AM, bulldog1935 said:

"Keep drag low" is the problem - that counts as handing control to the fish.  

Set your drag properly - 1/4 weakest link.  Keep the rod low for full drag and to use the butt for fish control, tip high for protecting leader and small hook in fish mouth.  Always bow to jumping fish, that is, drop the rod and ease your arm toward the fish.  

I agree w/ @Bankc about not rushing the fish in river current - use enough pressure to control the fish, let it wind a bit in the current before hauling it in.  

 

In hindsight, what I considered “low” was far too low. I now feel like I can feel the drag doing what it is supposed to. Amazing how long you can do something, only to realize it was not helping like it could have been 🙄.

 

And your tip about how to handle the jump…gold! Feels counter intuitive, but it works.

[bulldog1935]

On 9/10/2024 at 6:15 AM, raydomz said:

...And your tip about how to handle the jump…gold! Feels counter intuitive, but it works.

I've done this before.