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Are most mid and high end rods fast or extra fast action?

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A while back when I was compiling a list of brands of mid and high end rods that I could upgrade to, I found that 90% of them were fast or extra fast action. This for me was a no go because of the way I like to fish, I have gravitated to moderate action rods even in spinning gear for plastics. I have found that for me a moderate action rod I can cast further, more accurately, and it is easier to keep a fish buttoned on, I also use either braid or fireline on all my reels with a flouro leader on most. The one extra fast action St. Croix Eyecon spinning rod I have, I pretty much hate it, but do use it when pitching plastics in the 10 to 30 foot range.

 

So are these rods fast/extra fast due to the better composites used to make them? Knowing a little bit about carbon fiber, guessing that as the graphite grades out better it means it is lighter and stiffer? 

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There are a few brands that will include a few "moderate-fast' action sticks in their lines.

However many are limited to the MH & H blanks and are often only offered at the longer lengths. 

 

St Croix's 2018, Legend Tournament Bass line however, offers blanks they advertise as Moderate Fast Action.

They can be found in M, MH & H power and in assorted lengths. 

 

I have & fish a couple of these and Like them quite a bit when I want a 'softer' rod for a specific presentation.

 

😎

A-Jay

 

 

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33 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

There are a few brands that will include a few "moderate-fast' action sticks in their lines.

However many are limited to the MH & H blanks and are often only offered at the longer lengths. 

 

St Croix's 2018, Legend Tournament Bass line however, offers blanks they advertise as Moderate Fast Action.

They can be found in M, MH & H power and in assorted lengths. 

 

I have & fish a couple of these and Like them quite a bit when I want a 'softer' rod for a specific presentation.

 

😎

A-Jay

 

 

The bummer for me is that I fish out of a 16 ft deep V. My wife already complains I almost catch her on the backcast all the time (Father in law doesn't complain, so guessing it isn't as close as she thinks;) )and it has the high sides to boot. I try to keep the rods 7 foot and under because the boat:)

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1 hour ago, cgolf said:

A while back when I was compiling a list of brands of mid and high end rods that I could upgrade to, I found that 90% of them were fast or extra fast action. This for me was a no go because of the way I like to fish, I have gravitated to moderate action rods even in spinning gear for plastics. I have found that for me a moderate action rod I can cast further, more accurately, and it is easier to keep a fish buttoned on, I also use either braid or fireline on all my reels with a flouro leader on most. The one extra fast action St. Croix Eyecon spinning rod I have, I pretty much hate it, but do use it when pitching plastics in the 10 to 30 foot range.

 

So are these rods fast/extra fast due to the better composites used to make them? Knowing a little bit about carbon fiber, guessing that as the graphite grades out better it means it is lighter and stiffer? 

Yes, most rods are labeled fast or x Fast, but the actual actions vary from that to moderate, so don't just go by the label or intended use. Like you, I like a softer more moderate rod than most for several applications. I thread line on any rod I'm considering and actually bend it as I would while fishing. Older or mid level rods will often be "less fast" than labeled.  

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I, too, prefer a more moderate rod with just a few sort of obvious exceptions. I want my rods to load up, I want the added power of a shorter lift point (better leverage) and more.

 

My take? Rod manufacturers have sort of pushed hard on the fast/extra fast action over the years same as they have on rod lengths. Not as many rods in the 6'6" and under lengths these days. Both trends smack of "bigger is better" to me.

 

From a kayak? When I see someone finesse fishing with a 7'6" rod, H or MH, extra-fast or fast . . . and presentations are short casts, I sort of shake my head. 

 

Brad

 

 

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I have come to like the Regular actions on my Tatulas.  You might want to check out Hammer and Falcon plus the Zolo from ALX.

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4 hours ago, cgolf said:

A while back when I was compiling a list of brands of mid and high end rods that I could upgrade to, I found that 90% of them were fast or extra fast action. This for me was a no go because of the way I like to fish, I have gravitated to moderate action rods even in spinning gear for plastics. I have found that for me a moderate action rod I can cast further, more accurately, and it is easier to keep a fish buttoned on, I also use either braid or fireline on all my reels with a flouro leader on most. The one extra fast action St. Croix Eyecon spinning rod I have, I pretty much hate it, but do use it when pitching plastics in the 10 to 30 foot range.

 

So are these rods fast/extra fast due to the better composites used to make them? Knowing a little bit about carbon fiber, guessing that as the graphite grades out better it means it is lighter and stiffer? 

Extra Fast rods and Fast Rods and Moderate Fast Rods from one Brand and Model are generally made from the same grade of Graphite. Using Abu Garcia Veritas as an example they are made in 6ft6 to 7ft6 in Fast, Xtra Fast and Mod Fast actions; yet the grade of the graphite material is the same for all three actions....From my understanding the way each fishing rod ends up with its specific action or taper has to do with the way the graphite is pressed, layered and then rolled or formed around a mandrel. Many moons ago it was explained to me this way; and much of it also has to do with the type and amount of resins applied for layering graphite when a graphite sheet is formed and also the amount of heat applied in the process of making the blank. I know there is more to the process from an engineering point of view , but that’s beyond my scope of awareness and explanation. Someone correct me if I’m wrong , or feel free to add to this explanation 

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The majority of bass anglers prefer fast action casting rods because most use their bass rods for bottom contact lures with strong heavy wire hooks that a fast or Xfast rod applies more hook setting force. It's a holdover from the ole broom stick rods of yesterday.

Spinning rods are usually a moderate fast action because a stiff fast action spinning rod doesn't cast light weight lures well and most bass anglers use spinning rods for finesse applications. The spinning rod may be labeled fast action doesn't always indicate it is equal to a casting fast action rod, no specific standard.

To insure the rod has a slower action like a moderate look a crank bait rods or salmon and trout rods.

Tom

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2 hours ago, Brad Reid said:

I, too, prefer a more moderate rod with just a few sort of obvious exceptions. I want my rods to load up, I want the added power of a shorter lift point (better leverage) and more.

 

My take? Rod manufacturers have sort of pushed hard on the fast/extra fast action over the years same as they have on rod lengths. Not as many rods in the 6'6" and under lengths these days. Both trends smack of "bigger is better" to me.

 

From a kayak? When I see someone finesse fishing with a 7'6" rod, H or MH, extra-fast or fast . . . and presentations are short casts, I sort of shake my head. 

 

Brad

 

 

I would love a moderate action 5'6" medium power rod, I would pay good money for one of those if it existed. I fish a lot of reed beds, shorter casts, and that rod length would allow me to do that underhand roll cast easily to get spinnerbaits, jigs, and cranks to land softly.

 

I really think that sometimes the manufacturers forget about us folks fishing out of small boats or kayaks and instead create products for the few that run bass boats. 

 

As for loading the rod properly I agree with you. Folks that use baitcasters should work with a fly rod for a while, and the would learn how much line speed you lose by not allowing the rod to properly load. I feel that with my setups I can easily cast 1/4 ounce and under cranks and the 3/16 ounce spinnerbaits I prefer without backlashing because of my flycasting background and properly loading the rod during the cast and not overpowering the rod.

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While perhaps leaning towards more 'moderate' than 'moderate-fast' - and although they 'weigh' more (c'mon really ?), when throwing many moving baits and most all treble hook baits (except topwater) my favorite parabolic bend stick are All Composite.

 

🙂

A-Jay

 

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9 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

While perhaps leaning towards more 'moderate' than 'moderate-fast' - and although they 'weigh' more (c'mon really ?),

when throwing many moving baits and most all treble hook baits (except topwater) my favorite parabolic bend stick are All Composite.

 

🙂

A-Jay

 

Who has good composite rods? Honestly my go to cranking rod is the fiberglass baby blue wright mcgill clunn square bill rod. That thing just works great, gonna be a sad day if anything ever happens to it. The only thing it gives up is a bit of sensitivity compared to my Avid X or even my older cabela's prodigy sticks. Would love to find that action in a more sensitive stick.

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49 minutes ago, cgolf said:

I would love a moderate action 5'6" medium power rod, I would pay good money for one of those if it existed. I fish a lot of reed beds, shorter casts, and that rod length would allow me to do that underhand roll cast easily to get spinnerbaits, jigs, and cranks to land softly.

 

I really think that sometimes the manufacturers forget about us folks fishing out of small boats or kayaks and instead create products for the few that run bass boats. 

 

As for loading the rod properly I agree with you. Folks that use baitcasters should work with a fly rod for a while, and the would learn how much line speed you lose by not allowing the rod to properly load. I feel that with my setups I can easily cast 1/4 ounce and under cranks and the 3/16 ounce spinnerbaits I prefer without backlashing because of my flycasting background and properly loading the rod during the cast and not overpowering the rod.

Falcon Bucoo has a 5’6” Medium Moderate in their Peacock series

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1 hour ago, cgolf said:

Who has good composite rods? Honestly my go to cranking rod is the fiberglass baby blue wright mcgill clunn square bill rod. That thing just works great, gonna be a sad day if anything ever happens to it. The only thing it gives up is a bit of sensitivity compared to my Avid X or even my older cabela's prodigy sticks. Would love to find that action in a more sensitive stick.

Haven't tried them all - but here's what I can tell you . . . 

 First,  I usually do not prefer graphite for cranking. (there's always a few exceptions)

I own & have fished The Lamiglass SR705R & 765R both very nice fiberglass (yellow) blanks a few years back.

After two seasons of cranking with them I'd say they were decent but definitely a little softer than I'd prefer. 

A couple of seasons into it, I 'tried' the first run of Quantum KVD Composite Cranking rods. Loved them.  Bought 4 more.  IMO they offer the type of bend & balance I had been looking for. 

I have since re-homed the first run models and purchased the newest line and have been fishing these with quite a bit of success ever since.  My PB smallmouth as well as more than just a few other trophy class brown bass have been taken on these rods.  I use the TKVD706MB & TKVD746MB the most and for deep cranking the TKVD7106MB gets the nod. 

For the price - they are hard to beat; but I'd pay twice what they ask to get the same performance. 

 

1018169372_19Aug20186-4TopwaterToad1croppedBR.png.c7ca314d76073b9d23328c0f3a4c6d0d.png1912674506_30Aug2018LongDoubleCropped2BR.png.3dfd16ce2f7e186f5b6718f0255abcf2.png

 

🙂

A-Jay

 

 

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1 hour ago, cgolf said:

I would love a moderate action 5'6" medium power rod, I would pay good money for one of those if it existed.

I am 100% Japan has you covered on that, but it might take great money instead of just good ;)

 

But seriously, there are a lot more options for both shorter and softer rods from the Japanese brands. 

 

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I believe by definition all graphite rods are "composites."  There is also the common practice of joining two different materials, like two different moduli of graphite material, or combining sections of glass and graphite in the same rod.  A mention above states that a series of rods most likely will have all the different powers and actions made from the same material, and I believe that is generally true. 

 

The way that different powers and actions are made from the same material is by changing wall thicknesses and tapers through the shaping of the sheets of material.  This video explains it well, even showing how multiple sheets of the material are sometimes used on the same mandrils to give different powers and actions.

 

This is an interesting video from Seeker.   

 

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High end rods are often intended for "feel" presentations like jigs and plastics hence the fast actions 

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I, like Ajay, fished Lamiglas SR705-765R glass rods. I still have my SR705R. I wanted something lighter, more sensitive and less bulky but still moderate.  The answer was the Champion 705CB Glass which is composite. Since then I discovered the Champion line has all graphite moderate action rods in the crankbait "CB" line.  I consider these MID tier rods. Like Ajay, this series is what "I like", works for me and is extremely effective for the way I fish.  As for high end top tier, they are FEEL rods. 

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7 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

High end rods are often intended for "feel" presentations like jigs and plastics hence the fast actions 

I must be an oddball or creature of the cover I fish. I fish a lot of vertical cover like reeds and docks on lakes and a really rocky shallow stretch of river, and love the moderate action rods for finesse plastics. I feel they really help me put the hurt on them and pull them out of the cover before they wrap themselves up and get loose. With the extra fast St Croix spinning rod I find that I tend to baby the fish, and even though it is rated for light lures the casting accuracy really suffers on those 15 to 20 foot pitches.

 

Being a pretty good walleye jigging stick, helps with bass fishing too, because you instinctually know when to set the hook without feeling the fish, because you can tell the bait just isn’t dropping the same. I am not perfect of course, but have had some nights where I was on fire, knowing just when to set the hook even though I felt nothing. Line watching can make a huge difference when fishing for bass. In my head I have a clock of what it should take a lure to hit bottom, if it stops before then, I set the hook, more times than not I am hooked up. In these situations even the most sensitive stick in the world wouldn’t let you feel those fish hitting. 

 

Honestly for spinning rods, ugly sticks have been really good to me over the years. The are tough as nails and very accurate when pitching light plastics. Sensitivity isn’t great, but fireline improves that to a point I am comfortable with.

 

Sorry for the rambling response, could be the Friday night bourbon;), but I really think it is me figuring out what I need based on the cover I fish and my personal style of fishing. 

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check out Kistler they have a few Mod and MF action rods in their mid range lineups but once you get into the high end its all F or XF and this is because of what @Delaware Valley Tackle said they are produced for sensitivity type presentations where most people prefer the faster action. 

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On 11/16/2018 at 8:00 AM, Brad Reid said:

I, too, prefer a more moderate rod with just a few sort of obvious exceptions. I want my rods to load up, I want the added power of a shorter lift point (better leverage) and more.

 

My take? Rod manufacturers have sort of pushed hard on the fast/extra fast action over the years same as they have on rod lengths. Not as many rods in the 6'6" and under lengths these days. Both trends smack of "bigger is better" to me.

 

From a kayak? When I see someone finesse fishing with a 7'6" rod, H or MH, extra-fast or fast . . . and presentations are short casts, I sort of shake my head. 

 

Brad

 

 

Long handle, extra fast, cannot be more stupid.

 

It is like computers and tablets. Nobody wanted 16:9 screen but no manufacturer gave you 4:3 except iPad. After 10 years of failure, now finally Samsung and etc. changed back to 4:3 after Apple had made all the money. How stupid was that?

 

I searched hard, the only two rods that are not fast without an elephant handle are the Shakespeare Excursion and Quantum Telecast, still good enough sensitivity. Sorry, they are low end, but why spend more to get something awkward?.

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Watching fishing shows seems to indicate to me that pros are  often using more moderate actions for techniques where most of us seem to prefer. fast or extra fast actions  Based on the bends in their rods (the regular TV shots, not the GoPro shots).  Anyone else notice this?

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On 11/16/2018 at 1:15 PM, GReb said:

Falcon Bucoo has a 5’6” Medium Moderate in their Peacock series

I'll check that one out. I like Falcon rods! And, here in this photo, I am holding a 5'6" M powered spinning rod from St Croix. $120 or so. From a kayak, it is a dream for casting under docks and boathouses, for any short casting or pitching out finesse presentations. 

 

The photo? I want to point out that while a short rod has much more leverage (actually less bad leverage) over a fish, the butt end of the St. Croix is short, great for sitting in a kayak, but just know that you have to control the rod with, more or less, just your wrist. The butt end is too short to wedge it under your forearm. If you have a gimpy wrist, it might be an issue. So odd to get a nice big bass on a 5'6" rod and have total control over it owing to the lifting point being so close to one's lifting hand. 

 

If I had to carry along just one rod while in a kayak? This'd be it.

 

Brad

 

BradIMG_3689.jpg.cce46bd31363659f66387320af7993c4.jpg

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Been a proponent of mod-fast action rods for quite a while. It wasn't that long ago when virtually all high end JDM sticks were what they call regular action. Those would be what we call mod-fast.

 

I find mod-fast rods to better casting rods; both for distance and accuracy. If you haven't tried one for pitching, you really should do so if you have the opportunity.

 

A rod with this action will also land more of the fish you hook. It has been said a lot of pro fishermen are using mod-fast rods. These guys need to boat every fish they hook. They know what it takes. Their livelihood depends on it. And, if you read this forum, you will find a bunch of fans of the Loomis MBR series rods. There's a reason for that. They land more fish. 

 

Loomis really pushed the extra-fast thing with their BCR series of jig and worm rods. At the time, the most expensive rods you could find. They had to be the best. Right? The main thrust of their propaganda was the idea you would get a better hookset because the XF action gave you more power. Yeah? How's that work? You get into the power of the blank faster? Really? How fast is the tip of the rod moving during a hookset? How much longer does it take to move the tip another 5°? The lifting power, and thus the hook setting power, is not in the tip section of the blank.

 

A lot of folks drank that koolaid. Myself included. I still have several XF rods. Two Avid casting, and two spinning, all MXF. Two LTB casting MHXF and one Legend Extreme MXF. With the exception of the last one, all have been gathering dust for quite some time. And last one will now be a dust collector because I've built it's replacement.

 

About that; any of you interested in custom rods need to seriously consider a Point Blank from Fuji. Mine is the PB701MF. Casting, retrieving and working the bait, it feels like a fast action stick with great sensitivity. Hook a fish, and it it somehow turns into a mod-fast feeling rod. No idea how they did that, but it is sweet. I will be building more of those. For myself, if not for anybody else.

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There are some companies out there making blanks on the slower side of fast. I think the best band for the buck on a blank like that are what you can get from ALX. For 200 bucks you get a heck of a rod in the Zolo line and the customs that Alex and crew can make are really something special.

 

Phenix is also another brand offering several rods that fit into that category. Most of the Megabass rods I have fished have been on the slower side of fast.

 

I really enjoy the action on my Cajun Custom Rods Delta and Trigger as they are both on the slower side of fast with the Trigger being an almost moderate action.

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21 hours ago, .ghoti. said:

No idea how they did that, but it is sweet.

I have no experience with the heavy power Point Blanks, but I think the secret of their medium power blanks is they have a really solid backbone and a really light, lively tip.  When you do the CCS on most of them you'll find their action angle is very high, about 80 degrees. There are many blanks called X fast that have AA's more like 75-76 degrees.  This makes for a very versatile rod.  When casting light lures the tip does it; when casting heavier lures some of the backbone gets involved and it still casts well.  It's hard to overpower them when casting.  I guess the light, forgiving tip keeps fish on quite well, and it could be their materials and design/construction keeps their light tips from feeling sloppy.  They do in fact seem like they do about everything well. 

 

I would be interested hearing other opinions on why they seem to do everything so well. 

 

One of my favorite Point Blanks s a 6' 9" 600 gram power rod with 80 degrees AA.  Interestingly I have found a 7 foot 3 piece travel blank that is said to be made of RX6 material, that tests exactly 600 grams power with 81 degrees AA.  It feels a lot like a Point Blank in spite of weighing a few tenths more.  It casts light cranks very well and because of its long, strong, backbone, handles big fish very well too.  It feels pretty crisp with Fuji CC micros as running guides.  The manufacturer calls its power medium light while Fuji calls theirs medium power.  It is a much more capable blank than any other  ML blank I have fished. It even works quite well on finnesse techniques.

 

 

 

 

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