Why no love for the Alabama bass ?

[Bird]

I remember the snail darter stories from many years ago.

Still don't know why such a little fish made the news, endangered maybe.

Looked like a pleco if I remember correctly. 

[TnRiver46]

Alabama is now proposing a slot for tournaments only to protect the Alabama bass, and here we thought they were too prolific ? 😂 

[JHoss]

On 5/12/2024 at 6:34 PM, Bird said:

At least not here in VA.

Was fishing a 2100 acre deep clear all week, camping with the wife.

The bass were biting extremely well and I didn't even realize that many of them were Alabama " spotted " bass. 

 

So talked with 2 park rangers about my experience, they claimed that the spotted bass were accidentally stocked and will dominate the largemouth.

 

That certainly was not my experience fishing this lake all week.

Probably caught 50/50 largemouth to spotted.

I'd get into heavy submerged timber and catch all largemouth and when the cover got rocky, all spotted bass...... harmony.

I will say this ! 

give me all the spotted bass, invasive or not, those fish fight like a largemouth on steroids and one of the best eating fish I've ever had.

Not sure why we wouldn't want them.

They deserve no love in VA or anywhere else they're not native. There's enough science out these days to show that when they get into a new body of water, they outcompete the LMB and gene swamp the SMB to the point of being the dominant bass species in that water. An acre of water can only hold so much life, so that increase in spotted bass has to come at the expense of other predators, which is often the LMB and SMB you've been fishing for.

 

Since we're talking Virginia, the James River is quickly succumbing to Alabama Spots. North of the fall line has historically been a great smallmouth fishery, but over the last 5 years the Alabama Spots have gotten in and outcompeted the smallies. Now you catch more 8-10" spots than smallmouth and in 10 years, those smallmouth will be so gene swamped by spots, that they won't even be considered smallmouth anymore. That's a shame that such a historic fishery will be wiped out because some dumb a$$ bucket biologist decided they wanted to catch spots in the James. 

[AlabamaSpothunter]

2 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

Alabama is now proposing a slot for tournaments only to protect the Alabama bass, and here we thought they were too prolific ? 😂 

Only on the Coosa chain of impoundments, and I don't think it has very much or anything to do with Alabama Bass in particular.      

 

They laid out the data from a very extensive multi year study.    These lakes get absolutely hammered by derbies.    The study finds that larger, older females are disproportionately negatively affected.   The mortality figures were quite alarming to me when reading them.    

 

I fully support this proposal, and I think the biggest impact it would have would actually be on larger female LMB.   

 

we funded a three-year research project to examine the impact of bass tournaments and mortality of Largemouth Bass and Alabama Bass on Neely Henry Reservoir near Gadsden. Research findings estimate that a total of 45% of bass weighed in during tournaments suffered pre- and/or post-release mortality, with mortality rates potentially ranging from 50 – 80% during hot weather. Additionally, females are disproportionally selected by tournament anglers because they are heavier than males, and because the maximum size of males is generally limited to about 18-inches (≈3 pounds). Research indicates that tournament participants weighed in 50% more females than males, with this disparity being greatest among bass older than Age-6, where nearly 70% of all bass weighed in during tournaments were females. Female survival is essential to the continuation of the fishery, yet female bass suffer higher rates of tournament mortality.

 

The Coosa River reservoirs are small, and more vulnerable to the effects of tournament mortality. They cannot support the tournament pressure that larger reservoirs receive. Research also indicates that recreational anglers’ harvest is responsible for a negligible amount of the total annual mortality, and that regulations related to recreational angling would not result in noticeable improvements in the quality of these fisheries.

In an effort to eventually restore the trophy Alabama Bass fishery in the Coosa River reservoirs, a tournament-only slot limit is being considered in order to significantly improve bass size structure over time. Research suggests that a 14-inch to 20-inch protective slot limit for all black bass during any tournaments utilizing live weigh-ins on all six (6) Coosa River Reservoirs (Weiss, Neely Henry, Logan Martin, Lay, Mitchell, and Jordan) is a sound management step to address concerns related to the resource and to lead to higher quality angling opportunities in the future. This consideration of a protective slot limit for tournaments is intended to conserve and improve the resource for future angling, to include higher quality tournament experiences.

[TnRiver46]

So to control them in areas they are considered invasive, they just need some bass tournaments haha

 

wont matter to me, I eat them in Alabama river (fed by coosa and tallapoosa) and don’t fish tournaments

[JHoss]

5 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

So to control them in areas they are considered invasive, they just need some bass tournaments haha

The problem is there is no way to control them once they become established. You could help lessen the impact by requiring tournament anglers to kill any Alabama Spot they catch, but as we've seen with Snakehead and Blue Cats, that doesn't work. People who enjoy catching them will still let them go. And possibly worse, people who can't accurately identify fish will kill the wrong species. Also, unless you find a way to only catch spots vs LMB and SMB, you're still going to be harming the native populations with release mortality anyway. 

 

From the research out there, the only way to protect a watershed from Alabama Spots is to make sure they never get in to begin with. Personally, I'd love to see violators face extremely harsh punishment for introducing them anywhere they don't belong. 

[TnRiver46]

Snakeheads haven’t harmed anything and didn’t spread like they thought, biologists don’t have crystal balls but they like it when people donate to the cause 

 

Alabama clearly thinks the tournaments can control them, the proposed slot applies ONLY to tournaments, regular joes can still kill 10 bass a day of any size 

[bowhunter63]

I love catching spots but they fight with our Smallmouth. Every year  they have spot removal tournaments and a fry on our rivers. They really fight good . Sometimes they save the day 

[Choporoz]

57 minutes ago, AlabamaSpothunter said:

   Research findings estimate that a total of 45% of bass weighed in during tournaments suffered pre- and/or post-release mortality, with mortality rates potentially ranging from 50 – 80% during hot weather. .

  I have strong negative feelings about tournament pressure on a couple lakes I fish.  I have no data to support those feelings.

   But I am not sure I trust this 'data'.  I would get behind banning all livewell tournaments in the summer, but I have a hard time believing 50-80% of tournament weigh-in fish die soon after, even in the summer.  10% would be way too many, but 50-80 tells me to stop buying into the rest of the 'expert analysis' in the article. 

[TOXIC]

The rise of the snakehead population besides natural migration is due to bucket biologists who, for some reason, feel the need to introduce an invasive species into waters they could have never reached naturally.  Lake Anna, Lake Brittle and a slew of other landlocked lakes with no way for snakeheads to get into have been introduced here in Virginia.  While I really enjoy catching them, I feel that anyone who releases them illegally into bodies of water should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  There have been convictions here but the damage has been done. 

[gim]

1 hour ago, JHoss said:

Personally, I'd love to see violators face extremely harsh punishment for introducing them anywhere they don't belong. 

 

26 minutes ago, TOXIC said:

I feel that anyone who releases them illegally into bodies of water should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

 

While I do not live in alabama bass or snake head country and do not have to worry about either species here, I agree with the sentiment about introducing a new species.  Individuals (bucket biologists) generally have no or minimal thought process about what they can do to an ecosystem long term.  They just think, oh, this fish would be fun to catch more often so they dump some in.  Next thing you know there's consequences like outcompeting native species.

 

Minnesota has some of the strictest invasive species laws in the country.  In addition to prohibition of transplanting fish from one body of water to another, you cannot leave the access with ANY lake or river water whatsoever.  Whether that be in your livewell, baitwell, bait bucket, etc.  Live bait also cannot be "saved" for the next outing and must be disposed of properly (not dumped in the lake).  I am skeptical that these state laws will completely prevent the spread or new introduction of species, but its certainly at least slowing it down and reducing it.

 

Certainly there's examples of accidential introduction of species that have benefited others like gobies in the Great Lakes for smallmouth.  But there's more examples of it turning out poorly than there are of success.  Let the state agencies handle which species should be stocked or added.  As the old saying goes, you can't put it back in the box.

 

Slightly off topic but the MN DNR here stocks tiger muskies in certain lakes and one of the reasons they generally put them in instead of pure strains is that they are sterile.  They cannot reproduce on their own, so if they don't work out, eventually the species just dies off.  Pure strains can naturally reproduce.

[JHoss]

57 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Snakeheads haven’t harmed anything and didn’t spread like they thought, biologists don’t have crystal balls but they like it when people donate to the cause 

 

Alabama clearly thinks the tournaments can control them, the proposed slot applies ONLY to tournaments, regular joes can still kill 10 bass a day of any size 

I referenced Snakeheads in regards to asking anglers to kill fish. When snakeheads were first in VA/MD, DNR regulations said you could not release them after a catch, but people who enjoyed catching them did not follow the regs. And many of those who were trying to abide by the law, misidentified bowfin as snakeheads and killed them. If a law was passed mandating the culling of any Alabama Spot caught, you would have some folks releasing them intentionally and other folks killing LMB and SMB because they can't properly differentiate the species. 

 

Biologists don't need crystal balls for Alabama Bass, they have lakes that are 20-30 years into a Alabama Bass invasion that they can study. Those lakes show that Alabama Bass replace native LMB and SMB populations and they will do that in just about every watershed they're introduced to.

 

Alabama Bass outcompete LMB and SMB when they're 3-8" long. No amount of fishing harvest can impact that size class. 

 

Check out the most recent episode, "You A'int From Around Here!" from the Better Fishing with Two Bald Biologist Podcast. It's all about invasive species in NC and they go into detail how the Alabama Spotted Bass have impacted specific NC lakes and rivers. 

[TnRiver46]

I wouldn’t say nearly every body of water, plenty of them coexist happily like guntersville. It’s mostly blueback herring lakes where they dominate. Here in my area they have only thrived in the ocoee, which was pretty well fishless until the spots started thriving, they had an opportunity. Lot of unfounded fears similar to the Asian carp that were going to destroy a billion dollar fishing industry. Instead they never showed up 

[Alex from GA]

I live on aguably the best Alabama Bass lake in the US and catch them everyday I fish.  That said I also fish for the GA Bass Slam for the 10 species of black bass in GA and see the results from the introduction of Alabama Bass.  They take over and hybridize with native species.  There are places where I used to go for, mostly upland species, that all I catch are Alabama Bass.  Yes they are great eating.

[Alex from GA]

And they pull really hard.

[JHoss]

21 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

I wouldn’t say nearly every body of water, plenty of them coexist happily like guntersville. It’s mostly blueback herring lakes where they dominate. Here in my area they have only thrived in the ocoee, which was pretty well fishless until the spots started thriving, they had an opportunity. Lot of unfounded fears similar to the Asian carp that were going to destroy a billion dollar fishing industry. Instead they never showed up 

Remind me what state Lake Guntersville is in? ALABAMA... like in ALABAMA Spotted Bass. Of course the lakes and species in its native range have evolved to have a balance between the species that naturally occur there. The problem is when they are introduced into lakes where they are not native. They are invasive in nearly all situations of introduction as long as the temperatures don't get too low in the winter. I'm sorry man, but the science says you're wrong whether you want to accept that or not.

[TnRiver46]

11 minutes ago, JHoss said:

Remind me what state Lake Guntersville is in? ALABAMA... like in ALABAMA Spotted Bass. Of course the lakes and species in its native range have evolved to have a balance between the species that naturally occur there. The problem is when they are introduced into lakes where they are not native. They are invasive in nearly all situations of introduction as long as the temperatures don't get too low in the winter. I'm sorry man, but the science says you're wrong whether you want to accept that or not.

Alabama bass are not native to guntersville. They are native to coosa river, not TN river . They were only recently named “Alabama bass,” they were formerly known as coosa river sub species of spotted bass, hence micropterus coosae

[JHoss]

3 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

They are native to coosa river, not TN river . They were only recently named “Alabama bass”

You are correct about that. But, Guntersville is still a poor choice to make your argument. It's in the same exact region as their native range so you can expect similar weather conditions. The lake has always had a species of spotted bass which would help other species evolved to better coexist with a very similar species, the ASB. The two watersheds border each other and it's been documented that ducks can transport viable fish eggs up to 100 miles, so it would almost be expected for nature to slowly move some fish from the TN River watershed to the Mobile Basin watershed. It's not expected for nature to transport them 500 miles in one shot. Additionally, Alabama DNR is awful about their research. I've scoured the internet for fish surveys, which would show the shift in the bass demographic in that lake since the ASB got established. If you can find some sort of data that proves no impact, I would love to hear it.

 

We can argue about this all day, but fisheries biologists unanimously agree that Alabama Spotted Bass are invasive and will outcompete LMB and SMB. 

[TnRiver46]

This fisheries biologists thinks that they will outcompete native fish in some places and not in others, because that has already happened . There are several places other than guntersville where the Alabama bass is present but not king. We’ve got a member on here that fishes Norman/wylie and catches lots of Alabama bass. But he also catches lots of large LMB. Sure the alabamas may outcompete them, but just assuming they will takeover forever because they have in some other locations is bad science. Precaution can be helpful but blanket statements never hold true. Every body of water is a case study, seems to me like the places they will thrive best are lakes with blueback herring, deep clear tributary lakes like Fontana, and some shallow swift rivers . 
 

The Asian carp was going to destroy all fishing in middle America and the Great Lakes, until it didn’t . They like doom and gloom but fish are tough 

[JHoss]

41 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

This fisheries biologists thinks that they will outcompete native fish in some places and not in others, because that has already happened . There are several places other than guntersville where the Alabama bass is present but not king. We’ve got a member on here that fishes Norman/wylie and catches lots of Alabama bass. But he also catches lots of large LMB. Sure the alabamas may outcompete them, but just assuming they will takeover forever because they have in some other locations is bad science. Precaution can be helpful but blanket statements never hold true. Every body of water is a case study, seems to me like the places they will thrive best are lakes with blueback herring, deep clear tributary lakes like Fontana, and some shallow swift rivers . 
 

The Asian carp was going to destroy all fishing in middle America and the Great Lakes, until it didn’t . They like doom and gloom but fish are tough 

I wish I was as smart as you and knew more about invasive fish species than thousands of biologists who have spent their entire careers learning about and studying these species.

 

My dumb a$$ can only repeat what people far smarter than me have said. People like fisheries biologists and Mark Twain who has a quote I just love, "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

 

Anyways, I'm done with this argument. If you want to continue, feel free to take it up with science.

[TnRiver46]

The idiot you are “arguing” with has a degree in fisheries science 

 

[gim]

3 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

The idiot you are “arguing” with has a degree in fisheries science 

 

Also a science major here (general biology) which includes fisheries, ecology, botany, etc.

 

Some of your posts are completely contradictory to what I learned in those classes.

 

Ya'll can keep those invasive Alabama bass down south.  I'm glad they cannot survive cold water temperatures.  I'm fine with the smallmouth and largemouth populations we have here.

 

[TnRiver46]

The scientific method involves testing ideas that can be contradictory, that’s the beauty of it . Usually a lot easier to come to conclusions when you leave emotions at the door 

[TOXIC]

Kentucky Lake and Barkley might disagree that Asian carp aren’t a problem.  The vids I’ve seen of thousands jumping and the reports of decimated fishing are pretty fresh in my mind.  Didn’t they even put up an electric barrier to keep them out of Lake Michigan? 

[gim]

9 minutes ago, TOXIC said:

Didn’t they even put up an electric barrier to keep them out of Lake Michigan? 

 

Yes.  Its at the mouth of the Illinois/Des Plaines in Chicago.  So far its been effective.