I'm curious what y'alls thoughts are on this...

 

For rods, do big companies have the advantage because of big volumes, internal R&D, manufacturing efficiencies etc? Or is that all overwhelmed by overhead/marketing/distribution chain etc and so at the same retail price point a small maker can produce a better product at the same price? As an example, I assume if you buy 50,000 sets of Fuji Guides you get a way different price than if you buy 50 or 500.

 

Net net can Daiwa/Shimano/etc make a better rod than a small maker, or is it opposite? Assume rods in the $150-500 range, as I think it would be very difficult to compete with scale at the higher volume lower price end of the market. 

 

Or is rod quality such a matter of opinion anyway that it is an impossible question?

The most expensive rod component is the rod blank because they are hand made. The materials the rod blank uses very in cost from state of the art nano resins and fibers to commodity materials. Real seats and guide trains also very in cost and usually available from a distributor or custom production for high volume users.

High end rods are not high volume products so it's labor cost and quality control that determines profits.

Very few state of the art rods are developed by mass produced rod companies.

Tom

I don’t see a small company having any advantage overhead wise. They have the same expense needs just proportionally less. A lot if not most innovation comes from small companies or even individuals in many industries. Companies of all sizes put out great products and some not so much. I judge each on its own merits. 

I see the biggest problem for small companies is that 100 dollar target.  Every company tries to put out a pretty good rod that comes in at that 100 dollar price point.  To do that they have very little margin on those.  When you start hitting that 200 dollar rang, that's where you see the handmade and smaller companies that have great, if not superior products, compared to the mass produced ones.  

When you are referring to rod companies do you mean brands or manufacturers?

Some brands are manufacturers like Saint Croix that lay up thier rod blanks, uses both off the self reel seats and guide trains and thier design components depending on price point and targeted fish species. Both Shimano and Daiwa have rod brands that rely on outsourcing components and Shimano owns G. Loomis that is a manufacturer of rod blanks.

Small rod companies like ALX is a manufacturer and distributor of both rod blanks and guide trains that started as a custom rod builder now offering OTC rods.

Dobyns, IROD and Kistler and others are small rod companies that design thier rods but not a manufacturer of rod blanks or a distributor of components using off shore suppliers. Garcia and Fenwick are examples of a brand only owned by Pure Fishing, everything is made and assembles off shore.

Tom

1 hour ago, JediAmoeba said:

I see the biggest problem for small companies is that 100 dollar target

Yup, and if the general public understood what the actual total cost must be, from end to end, for a manufacturer of a $100 retail rod in order to be profitable they'd be shocked. The margins are so slim that it's almost not worth it without big volume sales.

11 hours ago, WRB said:

Some brands are manufacturers like Saint Croix that lay up thier rod blanks, uses both off the self reel seats and guide trains and thier design components depending on price point and targeted fish species. Both Shimano and Daiwa have rod brands that rely on outsourcing components and Shimano owns G. Loomis that is a manufacturer of rod blanks.

Small rod companies like ALX is a manufacturer and distributor of both rod blanks and guide trains that started as a custom rod builder now offering OTC rods.

Dobyns, IROD and Kistler and others are small rod companies that design thier rods but not a manufacturer of rod blanks or a distributor of components using off shore suppliers. Garcia and Fenwick are examples of a brand only owned by Pure Fishing, everything is made and assembles off shore.

Tom

ALX doesn't make their own blanks either. So they are not a manufacturer. They source there blanks as well. Very few companies make blanks as it requires way too much capital. They source there components and assemble. 

 

Companies like Shimano, G Loomis, Phenix, St Croix (any blank manufacturer) have a way bigger advantage than the competition as they manufacture their own blanks in their rods thus keeping there cost of goods lower. For example if I don't manufacture my blanks I would approach a blank manufacturer (lets say and have to buy their blanks) thus the bigger companies make $ off of me, I have more cost in my rod. So, ultimately the big guys have a big advantage as they have scale so they can also purchase components in larger quantities. 

34 minutes ago, FrogMann said:

ALX doesn't make their own blanks either. So they are not a manufacturer. They source there blanks as well. Very few companies make blanks as it requires way too much capital. They source there components and assemble. 

 

Companies like Shimano, G Loomis, Phenix, St Croix (any blank manufacturer) have a way bigger advantage than the competition as they manufacture their own blanks in their rods thus keeping there cost of goods lower. For example if I don't manufacture my blanks I would approach a blank manufacturer (lets say and have to buy their blanks) thus the bigger companies make $ off of me, I have more cost in my rod. So, ultimately the big guys have a big advantage as they have scale so they can also purchase components in larger quantities. 

ALX owns Hydra rod blanks and is the distributor for Kagin guides, gives them a little edge on other smaller rod builders.

Agree the big companies have the price advantage buy not necessarily the state of the art technology. For decades my custom rod builder was Lamiglas who made thier own rods blanks that were state of the art. Lamiglas referred me to ALX when they got out of the custom rod business because Alex had a few of thier blanks back in 2012.

Tom

12 minutes ago, WRB said:

ALX owns Hydra rod blanks and is the distributor for Kagin guides, gives them a little edge on other smaller rod builders.

Agree the big companies have the price advantage buy not necessarily the state of the art technology. For decades my custom rod builder was Lamiglas who made thier own rods blanks that were state of the art. Lamiglas referred me to ALX when they got out of the custom rod business because Alex had a few of thier blanks back in 2012.

Tom

The owner came on here and said they don't build there blanks. He said, "We do source our rod blanks from 5 different factories. Our rod blanks are proprietary and built to our specs based on the type of fiber and actions we want."

11 minutes ago, JLewis134 said:

The owner came on here and said they don't build there blanks. He said, "We do source our rod blanks from 5 different factories. Our rod blanks are proprietary and built to our specs based on the type of fiber and actions we want."

 

23 minutes ago, WRB said:

ALX owns Hydra rod blanks and is the distributor for Kagin guides, gives them a little edge on other smaller rod builders.

Agree the big companies have the price advantage buy not necessarily the state of the art technology. For decades my custom rod builder was Lamiglas who made thier own rods blanks that were state of the art. Lamiglas referred me to ALX when they got out of the custom rod business because Alex had a few of thier blanks back in 2012.

Tom

Ultimately, the quantity of the rods you make is going to result in a lower cost of goods. For example, Shimano pays less than Irod, etc for components (cork, guides, reel seats, etc) due to there scale. Ultimately, the bigger companies have most of the advantage as they have more money for research and development, newest and most efficient machinery. However, smaller companies definitely have there place.

 

What I will note is that just because that company has a price advantage doesn't mean they make the best product as that price, it just means they are capable  of maintaining a price advantage at that price.

When you put your name on a product you have a lot invested. Customer service is something earned. We are blessed as a sport to have rod company owners who are dedicated fisherman and offer and earned excellent customer service and continue to invest in state of the art products. Support them!

Tom

23 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

I don’t see a small company having any advantage overhead wise. They have the same expense needs just proportionally less. A lot if not most innovation comes from small companies or even individuals in many industries. Companies of all sizes put out great products and some not so much. I judge each on its own merits. 

Correct.The boat industry is the most interesting to me regarding innovation.

 

14 minutes ago, WRB said:

When you put your name on a product you have a lot invested. Customer service is something earned. We are blessed as a sport to have rod company owners who are dedicated fisherman and offer and earned excellent customer service and continue to invest in state of the art products. Support them!

Tom

100%. Fish what you like, no company is the best. Different applications call for different tapers, so I fish about 5 different companies rods as they accommodate my preferences. I like G Loomis, Shimano, Daiwa, St Croix, Megabass. Support the companies you like (it doesn't have to be the one I like or your buddies like), it ensures they are around and continue to make the product you like so much. Fish on and support these great companies that love the thing you love.

The most expensive thing, from a manufacturing stand point, in a rod build isn't the components... it's the hype/marketing.  A rod might cost $50 to $100 to build (at the most) but add a pro staff of anglers, show booths, online videos, and tv spots and you might have one expensive rod on your hands. 

^ This...1000x This.

Big companies are usually best for rods. For reels, that’s all there is. But a handmade lure made by someone who is truly an artist will always beat mass produced.

It's not the size of the company that dictates the quality level of a rod.  It's the structure of the design to production process and the resource capability.  

 

I am convinced the fewer involved in the design, build and sales structure of a rod company the better.  That of course is dependent on the ability and expertise of those involved.  When the owner of a company has the ability to stay hands on and determine the end product, the better the potential of that product reaching the set standards. 

 

When you incorporate the expenses generated by aspects that have nothing to do with manufacture you factor those costs into the bottom line.  I don't care to pay for some company's promotional campaign, ads or big name pro staff.  I but generic products when I go shopping because I get the same quality without paying for advertisement overhead.  Some aspects of being smaller are advantageous.