On 8/1/2025 at 10:44 AM, PhishLI said:

run over to ALix and use your powers of perception and sniff out what you can with regard to what's what and who's who. If you're too lazy to do that, or uninterested enough to bother, then you don't deserve to save a buck

Isn't the whole point of this forum information sharing and building each other up? Helping each other and giving advice? If you don't want to learn and share why are you here? 

3 hours ago, FloridaFishinFool said:

So there is an unfair lawlessness side to it as well. Top down lawlessness and theft of intellectual properties and resulting income

Yes, this is true, and so is the flip side of mega investment companies with 15x markups selling the same thing they took from some other company. Free market can be a dirty game, in the end its us that really takes the L.

17 hours ago, Eric 26 said:

Piscifun Saex Elite is nothing more than a dual braked different accent colored Ardent Elite and I know first hand that at least one part swaps between the two

Ah okay, I've liked some piscifun stuff.  I can see reels on that level being about the same

@little giant That’s cool to learn that Dream Tackle had Okuma’s blessing which I didn’t know about. Although I can’t speak for anyone else on here I found out about that reel in particular and also Kast King and Piscifun watching YT videos when I first decided to get back into fishing and was searching for some “budget” friendly reels and thankfully searching for a good “frog” reel recommendation led me to this site. Although I’m going to tread lightly here so as to not get the thread shut down @12poundbass & @FloridaFishinFool those are both excellent points being made and I find it extremely disappointing to know that is how many of those companies operate which is something I guess I don’t think about often enough and as mentioned especially when it comes to rods I’m becoming increasingly interested in purchasing rods from St. Croix for a variety of reasons. I will also add that thanks to this site but especially my friend @bulldog1935 & my Canadian friend @MiceNReets my eyes were opened to the ease and purchasing power of buying from Japan and in particular Ron for sharing his knowledge on Korean made fishing rods which for me at least I have yet to try out. Oh boy the monkey is really fired up now but after a big hard scape project in our backyard which I will share in another thread he’s going to have be put on hold for awhile 😉

On 8/1/2025 at 5:57 AM, F14A-B said:

How many of us can actually and truthfully know or determine blank material?

If you learn how to test rods for TNF, True Natural Frequency, you will find a difference in natural frequency between similar looking, similar power and action ratings, but different materials.  In blanks purchased for rod building I have found that generally the higher priced, higher modulus blanks have higher TNF's and feel tighter, crisper, and with faster recovery from deflection speeds.  You can't realistcally compare an 8 foot blank/rod with a 7 foot blank/rod, though.  They have to be similar with respect to length, power, and action.  Mastering Rod Building - Anglers Resource

Much of what’s being discussed here I believe is just flat out bad information.

 

China doesn’t care about quality control? LMAO

 

Whatever factory is building gadget X, is given certain tolerances. I can about guarantee those tolerances are met once gadget X leaves the factory.

 

WHO DO YOU THINK GIVES THEM THE TOLERANCES?

 

You think Apple has their products and components built in factories that do not care about quality control? Or do not have the necessary equipment to control the quality?

C’mon get “reel”.  

Companies come out with different products at different price points.

 

High end products are going to be built with better materials and tighter tolerances.

 

You expect a $60 reel to look the same as a $500 reel?

 

The Chinese factory is building EXACTLY what the American company is telling them and paying them to build.

 

If you don’t like the quality, blame the company you bought the product from. Most likely, spend more money.

 

PS before you jump down my throat, I’m a diehard patriot that would love to give the middle finger to China and have all products made in the USA. But that isn’t going to happen.

Is there misinformation and misconceptions in this thread?  Yup.

Are biases towards China and "Big Bad Corporations" muddying up the facts?  Yup.

Are there people citing one-off scenarios and presenting them as if they're widespread?  Yup

Is this turning into an "I'm right, you're wrong" thread.  Yup

 

This started as a reel thread, but there have been comparisons to rods, electronics, and frozen food products. LOL  In case it has to be said, none are fair comparisons.  They're all different.  Rod manufacturing is extremely different from reel manufacturing and from lure manufacturing and, I can't believe I have to say this, frozen food processing.

 

Getting back to the reel topic - if you think you've found a bargain reel that's the same as another reel with a brand name pasted on it, you're in for a surprise. As much as you think they're the same, they are different.  Even when you take them all apart and compare the parts and think they're the same, they're not.  They're made of different alloys, different tolerances, different quality controls...even the plastic parts are made from different types of plastic.  It all looks the same, but it's not.

 

But tell yourself whatever you have to do to justify buying a piece of crap $8 reel.  Just don't complain when it doesn't perform as expected or breaks on you.

@Glenn It’s a shame it’s turning into such a thread as I for one do feel some of the Chinese manufactured reels are worth mentioning to those of us who would like to watch our budget while buying the best we can afford. I will also say thank you Glenn for having an open mind and not banning such discussions being had before they do turn ugly.

34 minutes ago, Glenn said:

Just don't complain when it doesn't perform as expected or breaks on you.

The point of this conversation is trying to weed out the ones that are in the other end of that spectrum, the $8 reel that totally surprises you with how great it performs. 

 

If there are noname brands making quality products, we should all share that. 

 

Sure there's junk out there, but the "reel" issue is there are also very solid quality products at an affordable price, just hidden in the weeds of all the offname brands.

 

Doviello/Acura/Darkwolf HICC50 etc... whatever it is this little bfs reel is UNBELIEVABLE AT THIS PRICE!

31 minutes ago, Eric 26 said:

I for one do feel some of the Chinese manufactured reels are worth mentioning

Please mention all of them here by name

1 minute ago, Banned User said:

.

 

Doviello/Acura/Darkwolf HICC50 etc... whatever it is this little bfs reel is UNBELIEVABLE AT THIS PRICE!

Please mention all of them here by name

As I’ve stated previously I’m no reel expert and have stated before I’m personally happy with my Piscifun products in which I’ve even shared the models along with my BPS products. I’m not into the whole bfs scene but I’m interested enough to just enjoy reading/watching about it and I’m familiar enough with the names you mentioned above which makes me feel you know more than you’re letting on. Lastly I personally feel @Bigbox99 has done an excellent job pointing out some of the better alternative products also and although I can’t speak for him I for one would have no problem reaching out via a PM to him. I will also add the Piscifun Alloy M reel had received some love but looks unavailable currently.

18 minutes ago, Banned User said:

The point of this conversation is trying to weed out the ones that are in the other end of that spectrum, the $8 reel that totally surprises you with how great it performs. 

 

If there are noname brands making quality products, we should all share that

That doesn’t feel like that was the original intent of this thread. I could be wrong.
 

There have been plenty of threads over the years of members posting their experience on cheaper reels, where they found them, modifications they made, and so on.

5 hours ago, Glenn said:

As much as you think they're the same, they are different.  Even when you take them all apart and compare the parts and think they're the same, they're not.  They're made of different alloys, different tolerances, different quality controls...even the plastic parts are made from different types of plastic.  It all looks the same, but it's not.

I know you're not suggesting that every reel is unique and that none of them share any parts.  Yes there are different alloys,  tolerances,  and quality controls.  It's just difficult if not impossible to know when you're paying for quality or if you're getting ripped off.  I know an $8 no name reel did not cost $200 to make.   I don't know that a $200 no name reel did not cost $8 to make.

 

I don't know what to think about Kestler Reels for example.    I know they're not made in the Kestler factory in Texas.  I don't know who makes them or if they are quality reels.  Can I  be sure that the management at Kestler knows what alloys, tolerances, and quality controls were used to make the reel?  Kestler Rods have a good reputation.  Does that mean I should trust any product that bears the Kestler brand.  Does Kestler sell frozen foods?  lol.  

 

I'm pretty sure that a $350 Diawa reel cost more to make than a $99 Diawa reel and is a better reel.  I'm sure Diawa knows what alloys, tolerances, and quality controls are used in their reels.  That's why I stick with companies like Diawa and Shimano for the reels I buy.  Their core competency is in making fish reels.  They control what goes into them and I have a better idea what I'm buying.

9 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Can I  be sure that the management at Kestler knows what alloys, tolerances, and quality controls were used to make the reel?  

We sure should hope so. Kestler, for example only, sends their specs to the Chinese company. They don’t just say “make a reel that looks like this”. They spec the entire thing out, material, tolerances, specs, etc. 

 

Like I’ve said in other posts, Offshore manufacturing is as good as, if not better than some US manufacturing for certain things. That’s just the nature of the world right now. For example, on a project I managed, I had to have US provided steel sent to China for production of the product. That was a flow down from my customer. I couldn’t allow the manufacturer in china to pick what they wanted. 

It is remarkably easy to research a product.  If I can’t establish the provenance of a brand to my satisfaction, I simply don’t buy it.  

16 hours ago, FloridaFishinFool said:

I got my information directly from the man who designed and built rods for an American company tell me to my face that they as a company cannot control quality control in China over their product. 

He may have been talking about a specific manufacturer, but not about ALL.  It is incorrect to believe that ALL China manufacturers have poor quality control.  

I forgot to add to my list my Daiwa CA 80 which I believe is manufactured by Doyo and bought online for $65.00 and although it is not as nice as my Alphas my personal highest end reel it’s still a pretty darn nice reel to me.

46 minutes ago, Eric 26 said:

I forgot to add to my list my Daiwa CA 80 which I believe is manufactured by Doyo

 

A daiwa made by doyo?

 

Is this possible? So daiwa is not really daiwa?

 

Maybe I have been living under a rock or in a cave or something, well in Florida how about lost in the jungle maybe? to the point that I have never heard before now that daiwa does not actually make their own reels.

 

This is new to me. Can anyone else confirm this?

 

-----------------------------------------------------ADDED

 

I find this curious because I have some reels that I absolutely love made by doyo that look to me like they incorporate some daiwa traits. It is a reel no one ever mentions. And I mean never! Yet it is an amazing reel that is one of a kind. It has dual drag washers on front and rear of main drive gear. It has ball bearing mounted pinion gear which was unheard of when this reel was made. And it comes with a magnetic braking structure similar to daiwa- along with centrifugal brakes too. It has the bells and whistles and yet no one ever mentions this reel!

 

I use it for flipping and pitching mainly because it has a cast reset switch I can access on a pitch with same hand and do not have to use a second hand to reset the reel. Kind of designed like an old castaic but in my opinion superior in serveral ways. Love the instant resetting switch. No other reel ever made before or since did it the way this reel is designed. I'm glad I discovered it.

 

I'd like to do a thread on this reel and can probably get away with it because the reel has been out of production for decades. No longer available for more than 20 years. Can't advertise and promote a product no longer available can I? So talking about it should be staying within the rules. (I hope)

 

 

This is my favorite doyo reel ever made. A cool little reel. I buy other doyo reels and dress this one up with new shiny metal drag star and new swept handles and install my preference for drag washers and full ceramic spool bearings to turn this little reel into the best flipping and pitching reel ever made.

 

Thanks to who? Daiwa or doyo or both? I know the bass pro who's signature reel this one is had nothing to do with the design I don't think. If he did, then kudos to him!

6 minutes ago, FloridaFishinFool said:

 

A daiwa made by doyo?

 

Is this possible? So daiwa is not really daiwa?

 

 

It’s a Doyowa…. 
 

(Since I can’t put a little laughing face on my own post.  This will have to do. )

5 minutes ago, FloridaFishinFool said:

A daiwa made by doyo?

Their lowest baitcast reels aren't real Daiwas and they use some other OEM for them.  

Every Daiwa spinning reel with an optional A/R switch is made by Tica.  

 

15 minutes ago, FloridaFishinFool said:

A daiwa made by doyo?

 

Is this possible? So daiwa is not really daiwa?

The CC 80, CR 80, and CA 80 found on TW are DOYO builds. Korean MagTraX lin mag brakes.

35 minutes ago, PhishLI said:

The CC 80, CR 80, and CA 80 found on TW are DOYO builds. Korean MagTraX lin mag brakes.

There is also the PR100 Daiwa offers in other markets that is some sort of chinease reel. 

38 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

Every Daiwa spinning reel with an optional A/R switch is made by Tica.  

 

I was waiting for you to add this to the conversation 😉 As a kind gesture that was and is still appreciated I’m the proud second hand owner of @bulldog1935’s Tica Cetus SS500 and I have to add it’s an incredible little reel that is smooth and fun to use and at its current e-bay price also quite affordable.

16 minutes ago, Bigbox99 said:

There is also the PR100 Daiwa offers in other markets that is some sort of chinease reel. 

I believe you're correct. Nothing about it pops out as Doyo or Banax Korea, even though both have some production in China.

14 minutes ago, Eric 26 said:

 

 

Curious what rod that is?

 

It looks almost the same as one of my old Abu ultra light rods. Same type of reel seat and grip.

I think something others are missing in their crusade against Chinese manufacturing; they will build as high quality of an item you want, you just have to pay for it.  This can involve more precise manufacturing methods or even a change to a higher quality material.  I say this as somebody relatively fluent in the auto industry, who obtains countless parts from Chinese vendors.  The accountants have predetermined a price point that must be met as agreed upon with the engineers, which means they get what they pay for.  If they want better, they pay for it and pass the cost to the consumer.  Chinese labor isn't any less skilled than we are.  It comes down to money.  For a company pumping out thousands of products, even a difference of a few cents will have an effect on the bottom line. 

 

There's a very good book one can read about this written by Bob Lutz; Car Guys vs Bean Counters.  It details how great companies are founded by enthusiasts and eventually fall from grace when the accountants want to fatten up the balance sheet for investors.  Innovation slows, quality declines, and eventually you're left with a company relying on brand recognition and not the quality they established earlier in their history.  Investors only care about the performance of the company at large; is there a return on investment or not?  They seldom care about the quality of the final product unless it's affecting ROI.  The perfect example of this in the fishing world is none other than Abu Garcia.  Read their history up until now, and it's easy to see their slow downward trajectory between 1984 and 2025.  

 

 

2 minutes ago, redmeansdistortion said:

I think something others are missing in their crusade against Chinese manufacturing; they will build as high quality of an item you want, you just have to pay for it. 

This has been my firsthand experience.