St Croix River tragedy

[thediscochef]

Absolutely terrible. PFDs don't solve everything but you might at least get a fighting chance. RIP 

[GaryH]

My boat doesn’t move with the big motor running unless everyone is wearing a pfd and the kill switch is attached. Kill switch is as basic as making sure the plug is in. As mentioned already make it a habit that comes naturally. 

[flyfisher]

21 hours ago, thediscochef said:

Absolutely terrible. PFDs don't solve everything but you might at least get a fighting chance. RIP 

Interesting take given that 85% of deaths people were not wearing their PFD.  I'd say wearing one gives you more than just a fighting chance.

[thediscochef]

5 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

Interesting take given that 85% of deaths people were not wearing their PFD.  I'd say wearing one gives you more than just a fighting chance.

OK I'm gonna stop you right there if you think I don't think PFDs are important. But if you hit a stump rooster tailing across the lake and that lower unit winds up in the seats, a PFD isn't gonna solve that. ?‍♂️ a fighting chance is better than drowning you dingus

[flyfisher]

2 minutes ago, thediscochef said:

OK I'm gonna stop you right there if you think I don't think PFDs are important. But if you hit a stump rooster tailing across the lake and that lower unit winds up in the seats, a PFD isn't gonna solve that. ?‍♂️

of course not and the data provided before also indicates lack of boater safety course is also a large factor in accidents.  I'd be willing to bet as well that the possibility of surviving a boat accident like you mentioned is much greater if wearing a PFD as you are being ejected from the boat.

[thediscochef]

9 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

of course not and the data provided before also indicates lack of boater safety course is also a large factor in accidents.  I'd be willing to bet as well that the possibility of surviving a boat accident like you mentioned is much greater if wearing a PFD as you are being ejected from the boat.

yeah. and i haven't ever advocated against PFDs. put the straw man down. Two men died.
What I was trying to say with less words is that people are way too casual on the water - boats have safety features, sure, but there's a point at which those features only do so much if anything goes wrong enough. boaters shouldn't be lured into a false sense of safety just because they're wearing PFDs. 

[Kirtley Howe]

PDFs are great and everyone should wear one. Kill switches are great and have no doubt saved many lives. All the other safety features built into boats are wonderful and worthwhile. BUT----no safety feature, rule, or law will protect against stupidity, carelessness, or ignorance be it willful or not.

The loss of a life is a terrible thing for both the person and the family of the person, and I do not mean to diminish that in any way, and I do not know if any of those things were involved in this accident. 

One of the major, if not THE major, causes of boating accidents among recreational boaters is alcohol consumption, and not just by the person operating the boat. An impaired passenger in a boat is a huge liability and increased the risk of accident. Do not drink and boat, period. Save it for when the trip is done. 

Sorry if I hijacked the thread. I will get off my soapbox now.

[flyfisher]

48 minutes ago, thediscochef said:

yeah. and i haven't ever advocated against PFDs. put the straw man down. Two men died.
What I was trying to say with less words is that people are way too casual on the water - boats have safety features, sure, but there's a point at which those features only do so much if anything goes wrong enough. boaters shouldn't be lured into a false sense of safety just because they're wearing PFDs. 

No straw man here so don't be all sensitive about your lack of ability to read the data and understand what I wrote.  I was agreeing with you and your example of what might happen and lack of a safety course is also makes a higher probability of a mistake.

 

[A-Jay]

Operating Impaired is a bad deal.

Rarely the number one known contributing factor of accidents However. 

Annual statistics show that Operator inattention,  Operator inexperience,

Improper lookout, Excessive speed,  Machinery failure,

and Weather all rank in front of Alcohol on the top 10 list. 

Behind BWI is Navigation rules violation, Hazardous waters and Force of wake/wave.

So simple sobriety on the water, is not a free pass. 

Stay Safe

A-Jay

[thediscochef]

16 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

No straw man here so don't be all sensitive about your lack of ability to read the data and understand what I wrote.  I was agreeing with you and your example of what might happen and lack of a safety course is also makes a higher probability of a mistake.

 

You came at me with "interesting take", which isn't universal for agreement, I don't think I'm the one with reading comprehension skill issues here. 

 

[Kirtley Howe]

I have no doubt you are more knowledgeable on this than I am and do not disagree with your statistics. 

But I really believe that alcohol plays a bigger role in boating accidents than is generally realized. I think it is often a contributing factor in accidents that are attributed to other causes. I often wonder how many accidents happen because that "just one beer" affected someone's reaction time by a tiny bit; or threw their balance off by a hair; or made them misjudge the clearance by an inch or two, etc. .

In most cases around here, if someone falls out of a boat and drowns, an autopsy is not done, and unless they are found surrounded by empty beer cans, alcohol is not tested for.  

 So many people do not realize how much being exposed to heat or cold, wind, sun, and exertion can amplify the effects of alcohol. 

[gimruis]

2 hours ago, Kirtley Howe said:

So many people do not realize how much being exposed to heat or cold, wind, sun, and exertion can amplify the effects of alcohol. 

While I do agree with your assessment, in this particular case there doesn't appear to be any alcohol involved.  This was a small fishing boat at a location on the river where larger vessels would generally not be.

 

Alcohol generally seems to be a much bigger issue for recreational watercraft.  At least around here it is, especially in the warm summer time period.  There is a large popular lake just west of the Twin Cities and the number one violation they are looking for out there is without a doubt boating while intoxicated.  It is known for having a lot of recreational boats in the summer and alcohol is quite often involved.

[WRB]

As AJay clearly expressed make wearing your PFD a good habit. Like putting on your seat belt it’s a good habit.

Operating any mechanical equipment including vehicles or boats intoxicated is illegal nearly everywhere, alcohol levels vary by state. 

Not condoning drinking alcohol and driving a boat but also don’t know bass anglers who do drink excessively, none I will share a boat or vehicle with. 

My belief is most boating accident occurs from unskilled operators and lots of those on the lakes everyday.

Tom

[MN Fisher]

2 hours ago, gimruis said:

There is a large popular lake just west of the Twin Cities and the number one violation they are looking for out there is without a doubt boating while intoxicated.

Don't hide it - Minnetonka isn't known as 'The Party Lake' for no reason...the number of drinking boaters on the weekends is insane...one reason I don't go out on the weekends.

 

2 hours ago, WRB said:

Operating  boats intoxicated is illegal nearly everywhere, alcohol levels vary by state. 

Yep - Minnesota treats it the exact same as being drunk while driving a car - BAC is identical too - and there's the chance of them impounding your boat and it ending up at auction.

[JediAmoeba]

A killswitch would help but who knows, they may have been ejected and knocked out. I changed my inflatable to manual so if I am knocked out, my life jacket isn't inflating....

[flyfisher]

On 10/6/2023 at 5:54 PM, JediAmoeba said:

A killswitch would help but who knows, they may have been ejected and knocked out. I changed my inflatable to manual so if I am knocked out, my life jacket isn't inflating....

why wouldn't you want your life jacket to inflate if you were knocked out?

[Swamp Girl]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:55 PM, Kirtley Howe said:

One of the major, if not THE major, causes of boating accidents among recreational boaters is alcohol consumption, and not just by the person operating the boat. An impaired passenger in a boat is a huge liability and increased the risk of accident. Do not drink and boat, period. Save it for when the trip is done. 

 

Yep. When I kayaked the Mississippi, drunk boaters were a greater threat than tows the size of aircraft carriers. 

[TnRiver46]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:09 PM, A-Jay said:

Operating Impaired is a bad deal.

Rarely the number one known contributing factor of accidents However. 

Annual statistics show that Operator inattention,  Operator inexperience,

Improper lookout, Excessive speed,  Machinery failure,

and Weather all rank in front of Alcohol on the top 10 list. 

Behind BWI is Navigation rules violation, Hazardous waters and Force of wake/wave.

So simple sobriety on the water, is not a free pass. 

Stay Safe

A-Jay

I was going to say, alcohol usually ranks somewhere around number 4 on cause of boating fatality here. Seems like not paying attention is always number 1 

 

they test everyone’s blood at a boat fatality 100% of the time 

[gimruis]

18 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I was going to say, alcohol usually ranks somewhere around number 4 on cause of boating fatality here. Seems like not paying attention is always number 1 

 

they test everyone’s blood at a boat fatality 100% of the time 

I am certainly not advocating for it, but even if someone had alcohol in their system, and they were wearing a PFD, it would save them from drowning. And a kill switch would prevent someone else from getting hurt too. You could be completely unconscious but the PFD would keep your head above water. That’s what they do.

[flyfisher]

2 hours ago, gimruis said:

I am certainly not advocating for it, but even if someone had alcohol in their system, and they were wearing a PFD, it would save them from drowning. And a kill switch would prevent someone else from getting hurt too. You could be completely unconscious but the PFD would keep your head above water. That’s what they do.

Sort of true depending on the PFD they are using.  Most fishing type PFDs are not type I which will turn most people face up.  Some inflatables will but they are not rated to do so.  One thing that is 100% accurate though is that no life jacket also gives you no chance of being turned face up.

[gimruis]

Another incident in Western Wisconsin today. Man missing, boat found doing the death circle with the dog still aboard. Wear your PFDs and use your kill switch people.

 

https://www.weau.com/2023/10/10/polk-county-sheriffs-office-looking-missing-boater/?fbclid=IwAR0OJ86PNP7aWPdob-g2gJs072z-Vvv5HMcMsuGpS1iptJwPTmnmiepGTnw

[Zcoker]

Accidents. I've seen boats flat-out wide open down here in south Florida in places that are only a few feet deep. One stump or rock and that's it--boom! Everyone tossed out. Life jackets are akin to motorcycle helmets, everyone knows what they can do to save lives and prevent bad outcomes yet it's up to the operator to make that choice. Something about choice here that resonates above all else. 

[gimruis]

46 minutes ago, Zcoker said:

Life jackets are akin to motorcycle helmets, everyone knows what they can do to save lives and prevent bad outcomes yet it's up to the operator to make that choice.

 

The difference there is that in almost half the country, motorcycle helmets are in fact required.  Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think any state actually requires you to wear a PFD.  So that is 100% a choice where as helmets necessarily aren't.  And as I've stated already, until its not a choice, there is a certain percentage of the population here that are never going to do it.

 

People that make dumb risky decisions like these can't read data.  But this country is about personal freedom, and that freedom they have to choose is part of what makes this country what it is.

[DaubsNU1]

Growing up (I'm 56 years old), I do not remember anyone in my family wearing seat belts.

 

We used to pile our entire family of 5 in front seat of a standard cab pickup all the time.

 

Riding in the car, sister would lie on the back seat, I would lie on floor, and brother would lie above seat in the rear window.

 

Our state mandated seat belts when I was in high school...so I started to wear one.

 

I could not IMAGINE driving without my seat belt on today.

[Zcoker]

1 minute ago, gimruis said:

 

The difference there is that in almost half the country, motorcycle helmets are in fact required.  Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think any state actually requires you to wear a PFD.  So that is 100% a choice where as helmets necessarily aren't.  And as I've stated already, until its not a choice, there is a certain percentage of the population here that are never going to do it.

 

People that make dumb risky decisions like these can't read data.  But this country is about personal freedom, and that freedom they have to choose is part of what makes this country what it is.

Yea, bad decisions, no doubt. This freedom thing wind in the hair movement can have bad outcomes. Only reason I say that is because I've hit the street a few times-- hard! Can only imagine if I wasn't wearing a helmet. Not to mention being in the healthcare business, I've taken care of my fair share of young brain dead kids directly resulting from motorcycle accidents without helmets, some of them small and meaningless, like 5mph through an intersection bumper sort of wrecks. Only 18 states require motorcycle helmets at all times. All other states are age restricted, under 21 years of age.