No More Ethanol

[GRiver]

@airshot I use both on some of my stuff, non-ethanol and fuel stabilizers…  the cost effectiveness in preventive maintenance goes along way. I put fuel shutoffs on my stuff too if it didn’t come with one. My log splitter get only run once or twice a year. I will drain it and run it out of fuel.

[gimruis]

13 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

Says it right there on the boat. I can’t control how the gas station stores their gas, they don’t tell me any details 

I'd say its pretty obvious right there on the label too.

 

Gas stations have standards and rules they have to abide by just like any other legally sold commodity.  You have to just trust what you're paying for is what you're getting.  It's like buying a hamburger and assuming its beef, not beef substitute.

[Woody B]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:36 AM, Woody B said:

Don Weed, a well respected Mercury Engine Master Tech who's shop is an hour or so from here recommends using Top Tier gas for marine applications.  He also has a list of additives he recommends.  He says up to 10% ethanol is OK.  He recommends stabilizing fuel that isn't going to be consumed and replaced with fresh within 15 days.   I'll reach out to Don for permission to repost his fuel information word for word here.  

 

Don gave me permission to post his fuel recommendations word for word.  Don is a Mercury Master Tech so this information is for Mercury engines.   I'm pretty sure Yamaha says no ethanol.   

 

Quote

 FUEL and FUEL ADDITIVES for 4-Stroke Models EDITED 3/21/19

Please consult your owner's manual, or http://www.mercurymarine.com for the BEST recommendations on each of these items!

FUEL:
-All models- MAXIMUM ETHANOL CONTENT: 10%. Ethanol content may adversly affect engine performance.
-See "Mercury's View of Ethanol" on Sherm's board at: Mercurys take on Ethanol blended fuel

OCTANE:

-Standard 4-stroke Engine Models (Including V6/V8 Fourstrokes): 87 Octane
-Verado PRO Models: 87 Octane Minimum (improved performance with 91+ Octane)
-Verado 350 (new production model)- 91+ Recommended (89 minimum)
-Verado 350 SCI/Racing: 92 or above recommended
-Verado 400R: 92 or above recommended

Fuel Additive Recommendations:
-Stabilize fuel ANYTIME fuel will not be consumed and replaced within 15 days!!!
-Verado Models: Quickleen in EVERY TANK OF FUEL. You CAN combine Mercury QuickCare or QuickStor Fuel System Treatment & Stabilizer with Quickleen. Use the recommended "dose" of each product per the bottle instructions.
-Quickleen may be used in ANY Mercury engine- it helps to prevent/remove carbon buildup (primary purpose).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Mercury Component Cocktail"- for EVERY tank of fuel, whether or not your fuel contains Ethanol: (Chemically, this works much the same as the previously recommended (and now to avoid alcohol content) cocktail, and requires less components.) This is Don's Preferred "Cocktail":

-1oz Mercury QuickCare per 5 gallons fuel
-1oz Mercury QuickLeen per 5 gallons fuel
(If leaving fuel in boat for more than 30 days, Use Mercury QuickStor rather than the above Quickare- this will help protect against fuel degradation).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fuel Selection:

Make your fuel selections based on the following criteria, IN THE FOLLOWING ORDER:

-High Traffic, Top-Tier (Name Brand) Fuel
-Appropriate Octane Rating (see above info)
-Lowest possible ethanol content (NEVER to exceed 10%).
-While it may be preferable to utilize a fuel that contains lower (or no) ethanol, use of fuels that are SUBSTANTIALLY higher octane can result in decreased performance, decreased fuel economy, and potential for carbon buildup. Higher octane fuels burn SLOWER and COOLER.

 

[airshot]

18 hours ago, Woody B said:

 

Don gave me permission to post his fuel recommendations word for word.  Don is a Mercury Master Tech so this information is for Mercury engines.   I'm pretty sure Yamaha says no ethanol.   

 

 

Been saying this for years, ALL gasoline can degrade over time.  Fuel additives have been around since gasoline was created or shortly after.  

[gimruis]

18 hours ago, Woody B said:

He recommends stabilizing fuel that isn't going to be consumed and replaced with fresh within 15 days. 

Is this referring to gasoline with ethanol in it, or ethanol-free premium?

 

My assumption is that ethanol free premium can sit for much longer without being used than fuel with ethanol can.  Which is exactly why I used ethanol free fuel in my seasonal engines.

[Woody B]

All gas degrades, and it happens pretty quickly.   Winter blends don't degrade as quickly as Summer blands.   Ethanol is a double edged sword.   It "can" absorb moisture that's in gas.  This is good if there's a little bit of moisture in the tank.  However, it will absorb moisture from the atmosphere.    A half empty tank of ethanol free can't absorb any moisture if the tank sweats.  It will end up with some water, that won't mix, and won't burn.  This is no different than the nightmare "phase separation" that happens with ethanol fuels.    It's best to keep tanks full during storage.  Less air space in the tank means less chance to sweat.   Fuel that's 10% ethanol can absorb moisture up the the volume of ethanol present.  Take 10 gallons of E-10 (that's perfect) and you can "lose" 1 gallon of water in it.   Poorly maintained fuel systems, and tanks with E-10 can end up with more moisture than the ethanol can absorb.   That's when phase separation happens.  

 

This information is from my automotive background and may or may not be applicable to marine applications.  

[TOXIC]

The debate about storage with either full or empty tanks in marine applications has raged on for years.  Some say the more empty the tank the more room for moisture.  The other side says that may have been true when tanks were metal but with the poly tanks all bass boats have now, there is no temperature induced “sweating” or moisture.  I’ve read Dons posts for years and even witnessed him get into a heated confrontation with someone I knew who is a Mechanical Engineer and made it a personal vendetta to post every fuel additives MDS sheet and even contacting companies if it was not public and then breaking down the additives into their active ingredients which many times were nothing more than kerosene and believe it or not, ethanol because it is an effective cleaning agent.  He considered every gas treatment snake oil.  He had like 20 pages of product reviews.  He made some good points and Don disagreed with him.  

[airshot]

I just use stabil or seafoam and don't worry about it.  Before E fuels, we all used "gumout" to do the same thing.  Never had a fuel issue in all these years !  My neighbor collects old cars, 60's thru 70's, most are performance vehicles, Camaro, Dodge Daytona, 440 six pack etc..etc..  Uses nothing but E10 and a stabilizer, been this way for the twenty plus years I have known him.  Cars do not get driven in bad weather or winter.  Many have gas left in their tanks for two years as he has over a dozen collectable cars. Each one starts right up and never a fuel issue.  Your money...you can buy all the fancy fuels you want, but simple additives that are cheap will easily prevent all the issues people seem to have.  My mechanic even claims when folks bring there vehicles with fuel issues, they don't use any type stabilizer and the have a tank full of water and crud from buying at cheap gas stations to save a nickle. 

[RRocket]

It is mandated by law here that ALL fuel has ethanol in it. So we've learned to work around it.

 

I put a specialized stabilizer product in all my fuel cans (Startron or K-100). This prevent phase separation, remove small amounts of water, long term storage up to 2 years, etc

 

It is used in all our small engines (outboards, lawnmower, snowblower, generator, powersports, etc). have not had issues with starting or long term storage. Been doing this for a decade at least. 

 

One important key is to keep tanks filled to max at all times during storage; periodically check and top up as needed. This prevents any headspace in the tank and reduces the possibility of condensation during storage.

 

I find this to be most important and overlooked when dealing with ethanol fuels.

[TOXIC]

Y’all can think whatever you want but remember, this is 1 year old fuel that was in my boat stored outside.  It was treated with seafoam, stabil, and Yamaha ring free.  Look good to you? It’s totally bad and phase separated.  I will admit, it came out of the in line fuel filter but the fuel that came directly out of the tank was bad and phase separated as well.  It obviously had the same treatments added.  I was in the e10 camp for many years and have never blown an engine or had fuel problems but I can’t deny what I see with my own eyes.  

[gimruis]

16 hours ago, RRocket said:

It is mandated by law here that ALL fuel has ethanol in it.

 

That's interesting.  Where are you located?

[airshot]

23 minutes ago, TOXIC said:

Y’all can think whatever you want but remember, this is 1 year old fuel that was in my boat stored outside.  It was treated with seafoam, stabil, and Yamaha ring free.  Look good to you? It’s totally bad and phase separated.  I will admit, it came out of the in line fuel filter but the fuel that came directly out of the tank was bad and phase separated as well.  It obviously had the same treatments added.  I was in the e10 camp for many years and have never blown an engine or had fuel problems but I can’t deny what I see with my own eyes.

Have saw that often when folks buy from stations that don't monitor there storage tanks.  Your fuel didn't get that vad in one year without being some what bad when you bought it.  Due to health issues my Islander did not get run for three years. Half tank of fuel had been treated with stabil when last filled, new owner pumped the old fuel out at my home before purchase, gas was just starting to deteriorate after 3 years.  Neighbors old cars set for 1-2 years with fuel in there tanks, not filled, we have often sucked out a small amount to test, never saw anything that bad in the past 20 years.  According to a friend that works at the local refinery, stations are terrible at maintaining supply.  I have saw samples they have taken from underground tanks...looks as bad as your samples.

Like most everything else, stations don't want to spend money on maintenence like they should.  There are a number of odd name cheap stations that no one buys from, and those that due, often have issues.  

[RipzLipz]

1 hour ago, gimruis said:

That's interesting.  Where are you located?

I assume Canuckistan is Canada (his location).

[newriverfisherman1953]

As long as I can get it, I’m staying with pure gas for all my small engines. I’m not taking a chance on treated ethanol gas. Might work, might not. I know pure gas works for me. 

[airshot]

53 minutes ago, newriverfisherman1953 said:

As long as I can get it, I’m staying with pure gas for all my small engines. I’m not taking a chance on treated ethanol gas. Might work, might not. I know pure gas works for me. 

If pure gas causes no issues, why was "gumout" ever invented ??   Your money, your choice, best of luck to you.

[RRocket]

6 hours ago, gimruis said:

 

That's interesting.  Where are you located?

Canada

 

It used to be certain Premium were Ethanol free, but that's not longer the case these days.

 

Ethanol in all fuel.

[Ratherbefishing75]

At the end of every season I dump sea foam in my tank and run her for about 20 minutes then i disconnect the fuel line and let the carbs run through so I get all the fuel out of her  pull the plugs spray in more seafoam the do the same thing to the carbs   As of right now I am only running with 2 6 gallon tanks  i empty them out before the start of every season.  One of the biggest problems with all the new fuels is that they build up carbon  I see it all the time in my profession now with that being sed. I’ve seen mention of fuel additives already and yes they do work  I use marvel mystery pin in all my small engines (lawn mower generator chainsaw) and thay start right up every time. And in my boat seafoam  

[DaubsNU1]

A few years back, got to talking with small engine repair shop owner, who jokingly said, "I love ethanol...replaced four thousand carburetors last year due to ethanol...good for business" 

 

I run ethanol-free in all my engines, from weed-eater, blower, power-wash, generator, ATV's, push mowers, even two stroke chain saw, Lawn Boy, and old Mercury. No issues, even with two stoke-mixed fuel sitting for over a year. No fuel-stabilizer, never felt it was needed.  

 

I do run ethanol in my 2005 Accord daily driver...average 20k miles a year in that little car...knocks down 30 mpg all day long. 

 

I did put fuel stabilizer in the tank of my Lund. Purchased in August, not sure if previous owner ran ethanol-free...better safe than sorry. 

 

Some areas do not have access to ethanol-free gasoline. Sadness. 

[TnRiver46]

Ethanol is for drinking , gas is for your boat 

 

ethanol will jack up your stuff , it’s happened to me and lots of others. I think somebody might be a corn farmer ……..

[Glenn]

Sidebar: gas you put in your boat is eligible for a tax credit for those of you that itemize.  It's not much - just the federal gas tax, which is something like 4 cents a gallon.  But every little bit helps!

 

[Woody B]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Good point Glenn, and one I had forgotten about.  When I was racing the gas I used in my motorhome was an expense.  The gas I used in my generator was also an expense but I got an additional credit for the highway tax paid on that gas.   I don't remember the exact numbers.  I was over 20 years ago.  I had a CPA doing my taxes back then.   

[gimruis]

9 hours ago, DaubsNU1 said:

replaced four thousand carburetors last year due to ethanol

 

That's the number one problem with seasonal engines and ethanol.  Gummed up carburetors.

 

Seems simple to me.  If the engine sits around for months at a time, don't let it sit there with fuel that has ethanol.  If you use the engine on a regular basis (like a vehicle) all year round, ethanol is ok.

 

If you don't have access to ethanol free gasoline...well, bummer.  Use fuel stabilizer.

[TnRiver46]

^simple as that! If one mechanic had to replace 4000 carbs, I’d say there’s still plenty of gunk to go around despite the rumored drop in sales of gumout 😂 

[Tennessee Boy]

I don’t understand the necessity to replace the carburetor.  I had a power washer that I loaned to someone who put ethanol in it.  The carburetor jets clogged up after setting for several months.   I cleaned the carburetor and unclogged the jets and it was fine.   Did the same thing for a family member who used a new generator one time and left ethanol gas in it until the next power outages.  The carburetor was clogged and was a mess.  Once I cleaned it and unclogged it, the generator worked fine.

[gimruis]

@Tennessee Boy I'm guessing the common small engine owner out there has no clue how to remove and clean a carburetor.  Even I would struggle with it, and I have more engine knowledge than the average bear.

 

People are lazy.  They use a small seasonal engine and then forget about it, or leave it.  Then the time comes to use it again and they expect it to fire up and run properly.  My own Father is this person.  He has weed wackers, pressure washers, chainsaws, etc that he only uses sporadically and are constantly failing.  I stopped even asking to borrow those things years ago because I knew he did nothing to maintain them.