Tragic Kayak Accident......

[Crow Horse]

Although the information is still somewhat sketchy, there are 2 items that stand out and one can speculate about them. It "sounds" like they went out in some pretty rough weather and if that is true that is the first mistake. Now the search has shifted to a recovery, it sounds like PFD's weren't in play. If so, that's mistake #2.

 

Here's the link to the story..... Search for teen brothers....

 

The facts are in short supply but whatever is found to have happened, it illustrates how fast things can go sideways and then compounded by errors in judgement.

 

Be smart and be safe.

[Koz]

I have never understood people who don’t wear a PFD, especially on a kayak. I always keep mine on.

 

 

[Crow Horse]

15 hours ago, Koz said:

I have never understood people who don’t wear a PFD, especially on a kayak. I always keep mine on.

 

 

I don't feel comfortable without it.

[Crow Horse]

16 hours ago, Koz said:

I have never understood people who don’t wear a PFD, especially on a kayak.

A great many people mistakenly believe that:

1. They are immortal                                              

2. They are exempt from the laws of classical physics.

3. Accidents always happen to "the other guy".

4. They are incapable of making errors.

5. They mistakenly believe they'll be able to put one on in the event of an emergency.

6. They are too uncomfortable.

7. They are really good swimmers.

8. It makes them look fat.

9. It doesn't look cool.

 

Those are some of the basic lame excuses for not wearing a PFD. I'm sure plenty more could be added to this list. All are without merit.

[gim]

I stated this in another thread. People value personal freedom here. They don’t want to be told what to do. Even if they know there’s risk or it’s unhealthy.

 

The use of a PFD is not always required and unless it’s mandatory, a fair amount of the population is simply not going to wear one. I liken it to wearing a motorcycle helmet. Data clearly shows it may save your life, but it’s still a personal decision. We’re all adults here and every one of use makes our own bed.

 

The incident posted above is unfortunate, and often preventable.

 

Stay safe, and make good decisions.

[slowworm]

I have a wife and children.

I owe it to them to come home.

I do not want my family to spend the holidays alone and mourning my absence.

 

I wear a PFD 100% the time I am on the water.  My Chinook in the kayak or my Mustang Elite self-inflator in the boat.

 

I have a Garmin InReach for emergencies when I'm out of cellphone range.

 

I may not look cool, and I may not be as comfortable as I want, but I am stacking the odds in my favor to come home, whatever happens.  And God forbid I have a heart attack or stroke and keel over (I'm at that age), no-one should have to risk their life to recover the now lifeless me.

 

Kind of morbid perhaps, but on this Christmas eve, it seems kind of appropriate.

 

 

[Crow Horse]

I'd like to add one item as rebuttal to the personal freedom argument. Not wearing a PFD not only affects the individual but it spins off from a rescue operation to a recovery mission. This effects all the responders. More time involved, additional risks they may encounter, rescue resources that could be best used elsewhere, and the heartache the members of the family endure while the body is recovered. At the end of the day, the one who chooses to not wear a PFD can impact many other people.

 

Just an observation, but it seems that the dominant paradigm focuses on the "me" and not the "community". Pretty sad in my book.

[VolFan]

I’d like to challenge everyone’s decisions back to being teenage males. I made some terrible decisions as a teen, as I’m sure several (not all) people did. Hindsight has an more extensive view from the height of a high horse. Maybe ease up a little. 

[Crow Horse]

Admittedly, I'm a safety Nazi. Safety is not an arena where one can economize in or ease up a little. Yep, I've made some poor decisions in my youth, but I was fortunate to be in a good Scouting program and took their motto to heart. As I got older and wiser, I began to understand the true value of being prepared. As far as I'm concerned, one can't compromise safety. Forget hindsight. Foresight is what needs to be developed to anticipate potential hazards & problems so that they can be addressed in the most effective way possible.

[VolFan]

Yes, and youth is wasted in the young. 

[MediumMouthBass]

7 hours ago, gim said:

The use of a PFD is not always required and unless it’s mandatory, a fair amount of the population is simply not going to wear one. I liken it to wearing a motorcycle helmet. Data clearly shows it may save your life, but it’s still a personal decision. We’re all adults here and every one of use makes our own bed.

 

Theres different laws/requirements for certain water crafts about how a life jacket must be within reach, well if a person gets in a crash and is knocked out that rule wont help them at all. My state requires every person on the water to wear them in the colder months, ive always worn one on the kayak and boat too.  But i dont think theres many states that require them year round, atleast mine doesnt.

I dont feel right without wearing my life jacket, same for seatbelts, helmets, etc....

Most people dont wear them (my opinion) because they dont know what they are doing or the dangers of being on the water. The guys that dont wear them locally usual dont know anything about boating, or even took the class/safety course etc....

 

The motorcycle part however is a double edged sword, sure a helmet with protect. But not really.

I arrived at a track a few days after someone wearing a helmet hit a jump, knocked into a tree and died before paramedics arrived shortly after. They had to cut the helmet off from how much swelling there was.... And for street bikes often if you survive the crash your body will be destroyed or ruined to the point where the outcome is often a life worse than the alternative. Now that type of crash is a smaller percentage but still, helmets really only make a difference in certain scenarios. Still a life saving piece of protection that i will always recommend to be worn, but they dont offer a guarantee.

7 hours ago, gim said:

I stated this in another thread. People value personal freedom here. They don’t want to be told what to do. Even if they know there’s risk or it’s unhealthy.

 

People value personal freedom because of all the men and women who fought, came back severely injured, died, and sacrificed everything so we can have that freedom. And they fought like hell for it.

Otherwise we would be speaking German, Korean, Chinese, or talking with British accents now.

That being said i agree on certain aspects of recommendations and rules for safety, BUT nothing should be forced. However instead it should come with a giant amount of information, facts, guidance towards the right thing, and explanation of why. Think of it like school, no one wants to learn because they are forced and given no reason for why they need it. Tell them why they need it and show them how it will actually help them, and most will want to learn and actually try. Someone much smarter and much richer than i am said that part about school a few years ago, havent used it till now.

[Swamp Girl]

Back when I had a couple columns for the now-defunct "Canoe & Kayak" magazine and was their travel writer too, I happened upon a guy who was doing some amazing moves without a paddle in a roaring reverse falls, where the extreme tides we have in Maine create whitewater in a strait. He was showboating directly below a bridge, so I got some great shots being above him. Then I interviewed him, confident that my editor would make space for him, but the editor immediately declined because the guy wasn't wearing a life jacket.

 

"We won't put that bad example out there for our readership," he said.

 

We all should be good examples.

[F14A-B]

On 12/24/2024 at 4:23 AM, Koz said:

I have never understood people who don’t wear a PFD, especially on a kayak. I always keep mine on.

 

 

That in my opinion was mistake # 1

28 minutes ago, Swamp Girl said:

We all should be good examples

Exactly right. Particularly those who profit from fishing and could be classified as ambassadors to our sport. 

[Choporoz]

11 hours ago, Crow Horse said:

 As far as I'm concerned, one can't compromise safety. 

I do.  Every waking minute of every day.  There's a constant risk calculus taking place in my head, usually subconscious. Your's, too.  It wouldn't be much of a life if safety was always the only consideration. 

[gim]

11 hours ago, MediumMouthBass said:

I dont feel right without wearing my life jacket, same for seatbelts, helmets, etc....

Seatbelts are not optional. They are required. That’s not the same as a PFD or motorcycle helmets in many cases. At one point many years ago they were optional in some capacity. Now they have to be worn. Data from car accidents clearly showed the benefit of wearing them, so they were placed into law.

 

PFDs are not required here unless there is a child under 10. They only have to be “accessible” which could be open to interpretation. Buried in a storage compartment? Probably not. Sitting out or strapped to a chair? Probably good enough. But PFD laws vary by state, as do motorcycle helmets.

 

My point here is that until PFD use (wearing it) is required and there is the reasonable threat of being caught without one by an LEO, nothing is going to change. I see way more people not wearing one here compared to those who have one on. It’s not even remotely close.

 

For the record, I wear mine when my boat is moving on plane from point A to point B, and my kill switch is attached.  It didn’t used to be like this though. Years ago I did neither, but it was my wife who persuaded me to change my habits, not anyone else.

 

If someone chooses not to wear one, so be it. Both my parents are avid anglers and they rarely wear one unless it’s required in their walleye tournaments. I have asked them to reconsider their decision and they tell me to watch my own bobber. It is not my place or duty to tell people (particularly, grown adults) how to operate when a choice is available. It is on them, even if safety data or my own personal belief does not agree with it.

 

I try to set a good example for my 6 year old son on this issue even though he is required to wear one anyways. I hope that when he is old enough to make his own decisions that he makes the safe one based on what he sees me doing.

[Tackleholic]

If I'm in my boat, alone or with others, I'm wearing my PFD and the remote is in my pocket;  always.

[Cuivre]

I learned the importance of PFDs when I did canoe trips in Alabama when I was in grad school at Auburn floating some class 2 and 3 rapids.  The buddies I hung out with stressed it as my informal "mentors".  When I got into tournament kayak fishing, it was required, and it quickly became part of "me"- plus a spot for my camera and other incidentals (NRS Chinook model).  I used to push and fight hard for the importance of a PFD on kayaks, but I've run across too many people who think that is an integral part of what "freedom" means to them.  I have since become cynical and remorseless for those "excellent swimmers" who die thinking they know better.   It also makes it easier to spot the kayaker noobs on the water- they invariably aren't wearing a PFD.  All kayak sales should come with a PFD as a condition of sale.  

[Swamp Girl]

1 hour ago, gim said:

It is not my place or duty to tell people (particularly, grown adults) how to operate when a choice is available.

 

I understand the sentiment, but our choices can ripple outward. As others noted above, if you die because you didn't don a PFD, the searchers now have to find your corpse...and it won't be pretty. If you chose other reckless behaviors that move you from the workforce to someone who's medically dependent, that ripples through insurance premiums and your family until you draw your final breath. I worked on a spinal injury ward. Our patients were predominately young men.  

 

I haven't tipped a canoe since I was a kid until 2023 when I was in the water so suddenly that I have no memory of tipping nor even striking the water. I was in the air and then I was underwater, stunned. So, I experienced how quickly one can go under. I had no time to formulate a plan. The only plan I had in play was to already be wearing my PFD.

 

[MediumMouthBass]

4 hours ago, Cuivre said:

I used to push and fight hard for the importance of a PFD on kayaks, but I've run across too many people who think that is an integral part of what "freedom" means to them.  I have since become cynical and remorseless for those "excellent swimmers" who die thinking they know better.   It also makes it easier to spot the kayaker noobs on the water- they invariably aren't wearing a PFD.  All kayak sales should come with a PFD as a condition of sale.  

This comment along with most of this thread are absurd for a number of reasons. #1 buying PFDs cost money, i can easily see a shady guy only selling several hundred dollar PFDs with kayak purchases to make money if that rule happened. #2 what if we already have a life jacket, or jackets? I bought 3 kayaks in a few month period, should i have been forced to spent a hundred if not more on a life jacket for each one? and #3 being the most important, the opposite of number 1. What if the store only has cheap life jackets that are pretty much worthless?

There were just 2 SEALS that drowned doing VBSS in the past year, give or take. They were excellent swimmers, (these guys trained in freezing water temps for hours and hours each day and night during BUDS and after for the rest of their pipeline). Both were wearing a floatation device. Theres alot of speculation the devices were outdated and only still used to save money, they couldnt handle the weight of their gear.  I can easily see a cheap life jacket, or an improper PFD causing a similar outcome. Theres several options for PFDs, knowing which one is best for your needs, weight, and type of water you are fishing is just as crucial as wearing one. Along with how to properly fit one.

But back to your last sentence, as long as you are agreeing to be the one to pay for everyones life jacket for the rest of time, than that sounds good!

 

Alot of people here would love North Korea by what ive read so far. Im very pro life jacket, but forcing people to do something against there will and making claims about how they deserve it or shouldnt get sympathy because they didnt listen to the masses is just wrong.

[WRB]

The 2 brothers were 17 & 19 duck hunting in very weed choked water area and cold weather. Heavy clothes plus a PFD may have been too bulky in there opinion, bad choice.

If one brother fell overboard into the weedy water and the other went in to save him may have been what caused this tragedy. My heart goes out to there parents🙏🏻.

Tom

[gim]

3 hours ago, Swamp Girl said:

I haven't tipped a canoe since I was a kid until 2023 when I was in the water so suddenly that I have no memory of tipping nor even striking the water. I was in the air and then I was underwater, stunned. So, I experienced how quickly one can go under. I had no time to formulate a plan. The only plan I had in play was to already be wearing my PFD.

Sometimes it takes a traumatic experience like this to change someone’s thinking on the subject. I’m gonna say that the majority of individuals that choose not to wear one (or a motorcycle helmet or another safety mechanism that’s generally optional) have never had such an experience. Lots of people probably go their whole life without that experience. Unfortunately, it may just take one accident to claim someone’s life, and there is no second chance.

 

[Motoboss]

Simply……………..Education 

[Susky River Rat]

On 12/25/2024 at 1:27 AM, MediumMouthBass said:

The motorcycle part however is a double edged sword, sure a helmet with protect. But not really.

I arrived at a track a few days after someone wearing a helmet hit a jump, knocked into a tree and died before paramedics arrived shortly after. They had to cut the helmet off from how much swelling there was

This is a highly uneducated statement. This event was such a minority of incidents it’s not worth bringing up. I raced motocross for well over a decade multiple  times a week. I ran around with people in the pro ranks. The death rate would be insane without helmets.  If you follow proper protocol with replacing helmets after you take a hit even if it’s two days old you replace it. Also the whole thoughts of how helmets protect has changed. That’s why good helmets are $400 plus. They learned a helmet needs to absorb impact to limit the impact of the brain against the inside of the skull basically. That impact inside the skull is what causes the concussions and neurological issues. This would be exactly like saying you can still drown with a life jacket don’t wear it.

 

This is very sad news. I do not wish the passing of an accident like this on anyone. There is such a misconception that fishing is a safe sport. That makes many people lack the want to be safer. I wear my life jacket when running on the river. I know if ejected I will probably ended up with a smashed head on a rock but, I still want to give myself every chance possible to make it.

 

 

 

 

[Crow Horse]

I think we can all agree that nothing in life is perfect. Any safety system won't protect you 100% although they do stack the odds greatly in your favor. Also note that if one doesn't employ a safety system and things go horribly wrong, there  are concentric rings of impacts that do radiate outward affecting many people. It's not a decision that only affects the individual.

[GaryH]

I’ll repeat what I’ve said in other posts. I can’t tell people what to do BUT when on my boat and the big motor is running you’ll wear a PFD or you won’t be on the boat. What others do on their boat, kayak or other vessel is their personal choice until it’s the law.