JHoss Posted November 13, 2024 Posted November 13, 2024 Here's the scenario: A local kayak trail schedules a regular season derby where you can choose from 5 different 1,000-1,500 acre lakes. This information is given to the members when the schedule was announced months prior to the event. The two Tournament Directors actively fish the trail. At the online captain's meeting that takes place the night before the event, the TD announces that they are adding a series of 12 "lakes" ranging in size from 3-50 acres to the eligible waters. The TD who announces this goes on to fish these tiny lakes and finishes in the top 3. He claims to have not pre-fished these lakes since they made the decision to add them roughly two weeks before the pre-tournament meeting when it was announced. Is this cheating? Quote
Super User gim Posted November 13, 2024 Super User Posted November 13, 2024 16 minutes ago, JHoss said: since they made the decision to add them roughly two weeks before the pre-tournament meeting when it was announced. If they made the decision to add these lakes two weeks before the event, then they should have announced it then. Not the night before. The night before is sketchy communication. I would not be a part of that trail in the future. Eligible bodies of water should be known in advance when the site(s) are chosen so everyone knows where they can pre-fish and fish during the event. 10 Quote
JHoss Posted November 13, 2024 Author Posted November 13, 2024 1 hour ago, gimruis said: If they made the decision to add these lakes two weeks before the event, then they should have announced it then. Not the night before. The night before is sketchy communication. I would not be a part of that trail in the future. Eligible bodies of water should be known in advance when the site(s) are chosen so everyone knows where they can pre-fish and fish during the event. That wound up being one of the last events I fished with them. They ended up banning me for "slander" when I questioned the integrity behind this decision on their Facebook page. The real kicker is that they didn't even have the stones to tell me I had been banned, instead posting an updating AOY standings with my name scratched out on the Facebook page. Even better, next year, those TDs will be joining the jon boat trail I've been fishing the last two years. That should be interesting. 2 Quote
looking45 Posted November 13, 2024 Posted November 13, 2024 Announcing it the night before isn’t the right thing to do,’especially since he fished it. IMO you made the right decision to not fish anymore. His integrity would always be in doubt in my mind. 1 Quote
Super User A-Jay Posted November 13, 2024 Super User Posted November 13, 2024 2 hours ago, JHoss said: Here's the scenario: A local kayak trail schedules a regular season derby where you can choose from 5 different 1,000-1,500 acre lakes. This information is given to the members when the schedule was announced months prior to the event. The two Tournament Directors actively fish the trail. At the online captain's meeting that takes place the night before the event, the TD announces that they are adding a series of 12 "lakes" ranging in size from 3-50 acres to the eligible waters. The TD who announces this goes on to fish these tiny lakes and finishes in the top 3. He claims to have not pre-fished these lakes since they made the decision to add them roughly two weeks before the pre-tournament meeting when it was announced. Is this cheating? Asking us again why many folks don't fish for money. A-Jay 5 5 4 Quote
JHoss Posted November 13, 2024 Author Posted November 13, 2024 36 minutes ago, A-Jay said: Asking us again why many folks don't fish for money. Fortunately, not all trails are like this one. The trail I've fished the last 2 years has been completely drama-free. *knocks on wood* For some reason, there seems to be far more drama in tournament kayak bass fishing than anywhere else in fishing from my experience. You would think with less money invested and less at stake, you would find the least amount of drama. P.S. I'd still fish tournaments even if there was no money on the line. 1 Quote
Super User gim Posted November 13, 2024 Super User Posted November 13, 2024 52 minutes ago, JHoss said: P.S. I'd still fish tournaments even if there was no money on the line. That's what I do twice a year. It's a local derby with 1 or 2 other boats in August and September. The losers have to buy the winners beer and lunch afterwards. That's all there is to it; no money is exchanged. We've been doing it for 7 years now and I'm largely in charge of organizing both derbies. The others that participate each year tell me that it's "easily their favorite fishing days of the entire season" and I tend to agree with it myself. I happened to be on the winning team both events in 2024 so the beer really went down smooth. 3 Quote
DaubsNU1 Posted November 13, 2024 Posted November 13, 2024 It it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and swims like a duck...well, you get the picture. Best to just move on from that group. I'm pretty darn competitive, but never fished tournaments. Didn't own a kayak, and my previous boat did not have a live-well...so no tournaments for me. I likely won't start fishing tournaments any time soon. My time on the water is more about disconnecting from work, and people, getting back to nature, and enjoying God's creation. 5 Quote
Susky River Rat Posted November 13, 2024 Posted November 13, 2024 I enjoy a tournament here or there. I could never follow a trail. 1 Quote
Global Moderator 12poundbass Posted November 14, 2024 Global Moderator Posted November 14, 2024 Sounds sketchy to me. I would’ve publicly questioned it as well and after I was banned like you there would’ve been a nice follow up post. 😁 2 1 Quote
JHoss Posted November 14, 2024 Author Posted November 14, 2024 16 hours ago, gimruis said: That's what I do twice a year. It's a local derby with 1 or 2 other boats in August and September. The losers have to buy the winners beer and lunch afterwards. That's all there is to it; no money is exchanged. We've been doing it for 7 years now and I'm largely in charge of organizing both derbies. The others that participate each year tell me that it's "easily their favorite fishing days of the entire season" and I tend to agree with it myself. I happened to be on the winning team both events in 2024 so the beer really went down smooth. I'm with you. Most of the times when fishing with friends or family, there's a small wager on the line. Sometimes it's $1 for the first, most, and biggest. Sometimes its the loser wearing a dress on the next trip. 13 hours ago, 12poundbass said: Sounds sketchy to me. I would’ve publicly questioned it as well and after I was banned like you there would’ve been a nice follow up post. 😁 Would've done that as well, but they blocked me from posting on the page when they decided to ban me. Other anglers figured it out pretty quickly and, from what I've been told by those guys, attendance was way down after that year. Maybe it had something to do with the ethics of the guys running it... I had already committed a fair bit of time and money that year, so I just wanted to fish the last couple events before moving on for good. 14 hours ago, Susky River Rat said: I enjoy a tournament here or there. I could never follow a trail. I've enjoyed my time with the current jon boat trail I fish now. Most of the guys are pretty solid. 1 Quote
Super User Choporoz Posted November 14, 2024 Super User Posted November 14, 2024 Third sentence in OP was as far as I needed to read. TDs shouldn't fish tournaments they make rules for and/or judge. Yes, I know it can be done and done well, but even the most upstanding TD opens themselves to questions when they fish. 4 Quote
volzfan59 Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 Short of delaying the launch time, or postponing the next day, both due to weather, nothing new or of any importance should be announced or changed the day before. That trail would never se me or my money again. 1 Quote
JHoss Posted November 14, 2024 Author Posted November 14, 2024 58 minutes ago, Choporoz said: Third sentence in OP was as far as I needed to read. TDs shouldn't fish tournaments they make rules for and/or judge. Yes, I know it can be done and done well, but even the most upstanding TD opens themselves to questions when they fish. Agreed on that, but it's hard to find someone willing to devote the time to running a trail and not fish it. The jon boat trail I'm currently fishing is the first time I've seen it done well, but that's because the guy running it is more interested in the comradery than winning. He doesn't mind getting off the water early to set up scales and there's never been any concern of him using his position to help himself. I have major issue with kayak TDs or judges fishing their events because of the CPR format. Every angler has to submit there catch with location on, so the TD gets GPS coordinates for every fish caught. There was a lot of smoke around this guy stealing spots, but nothing ever proven. 3 Quote
MediumMouthBass Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 This sounds as sketchy as buying a $5000 Hellcat in Philadelphia off Facebook marketplace..... 4 hours ago, JHoss said: I have major issue with kayak TDs or judges fishing their events because of the CPR format. Every angler has to submit there catch with location on, so the TD gets GPS coordinates for every fish caught. There was a lot of smoke around this guy stealing spots, but nothing ever proven. Between the polygraph comment on the other tournament post and this, are you guys fishing tournaments for the NSA? In all seriousness kayak tournaments seem odd and strange to begin with compared to what little i know of the ones with jon boats and bass boats. I barely could understand most of what i read at first, (again i know next to nothing about tournaments) but if someones in charge, finds spots for themselves and adds them last minute, and fishes along with you? Thats alot of mud in the water.... 4 hours ago, JHoss said: The jon boat trail I'm currently fishing is the first time I've seen it done well, I would forget about that mess and enjoy the one you are fishing now. Quote
JHoss Posted November 14, 2024 Author Posted November 14, 2024 1 hour ago, TOXIC said: Polygraphs. Unreliable. And cost prohibitive for an event that pays out 1st place at a few hundred bucks. 1 hour ago, MediumMouthBass said: This sounds as sketchy as buying a $5000 Hellcat in Philadelphia off Facebook marketplace..... Between the polygraph comment on the other tournament post and this, are you guys fishing tournaments for the NSA? In all seriousness kayak tournaments seem odd and strange to begin with compared to what little i know of the ones with jon boats and bass boats. I barely could understand most of what i read at first, (again i know next to nothing about tournaments) but if someones in charge, finds spots for themselves and adds them last minute, and fishes along with you? Thats alot of mud in the water.... Kayak events tend to be harder to regulate for a few reasons. There's usually multiple launches because you can't cover a whole lake from one launch when most guys max out at 3-4mph. Because of there being no centralized take off and return location, it's possible for people to fish entirely different bodies of water if they don't have location data to show where the photo was taken. Never heard of a poly being done for a kayak event, but it's entirely possible they may at the national trail levels. Honestly, it's a shame they have to make it so complicated to weed out a few bad apples. If you really want your head to spin, look up some of the way guys have cheated in these events in the past. Illegal measuring boards, cutting tails off to make fish shorter/longer, sharing fish with a friend, etc etc. Quote
crypt Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 to answer your question....YES. beyond unethical...... 1 Quote
MediumMouthBass Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 6 hours ago, TOXIC said: Polygraphs. Its unbelievable anyone still uses these. The US government has even admitted they dont work, but they still use them.... But thats only because they spent a fortune on them and dont want to look stupid, but oh wait You guys actually have to do polygraphs for bass fishing tournaments? At first i thought it was a joke, but now after ive seen this posted a few times im thinking its not. So you sit at a table in a dark room, "sir have you ever used a largemouth bass to send the Chinese government classified information" "no im just here to fish" "so you admit you are a spy!!!" 1 Quote
Super User Tennessee Boy Posted November 14, 2024 Super User Posted November 14, 2024 If this had happened in my old club that I fished in the 90s, I would not have an issue with it. It was a friendly club where everyone trusted the tournament director's word. There were a few guys that took themselves too seriously that would have complained, but they complained about everything. The tournament entry fees were $20 a person if I remember correctly. Now, if it's a big money for-profit trail, the tournament director should not be fishing to begin with. 1 Quote
JHoss Posted November 14, 2024 Author Posted November 14, 2024 15 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said: If this had happened in my old club that I fished in the 90s, I would not have an issue with it. It was a friendly club where everyone trusted the tournament director's word. There were a few guys that took themselves too seriously that would have complained, but they complained about everything. The tournament entry fees were $20 a person if I remember correctly. Now, if it's a big money for-profit trail, the tournament director should not be fishing to begin with. If the TD had been well-respected and trusted, perhaps people wouldn't have cared. There were 4-5 other guys who fished the same lake as me and none were pleased with what had happened. I just ended up being the most outspoken about it. The TD in my current trail is well-respected and trusted. A couple times this year he made calls to change venues or shorten tournament hours the day before due to high water or heat concerns. While many of us would've preferred to keep things as scheduled, there were no real complaints, which likely speaks to your point about a trusted TD being able to do more without scrutiny. Quote
Super User fishballer06 Posted November 15, 2024 Super User Posted November 15, 2024 I would never fish for money in an event where not everyone competing is on the same body of water. How could anyone prove that they are even at one of the "approved" bodies of water? 3 Quote
JHoss Posted November 15, 2024 Author Posted November 15, 2024 38 minutes ago, fishballer06 said: I would never fish for money in an event where not everyone competing is on the same body of water. How could anyone prove that they are even at one of the "approved" bodies of water? Kayak derbies typically do a Catch, Photo, Release format and you have to enable location on your phone when taking the photo. That way there's a time and location stamp to know it was taken on the tournament waters during tournament hours. In the photo, you have to display an identifier code that's only released the day of the event. On some larger body of waters there could be 20+ different launch locations, so it could still be hard to prove someone was on the right lake without the location stamp for a situation like that too. 1 Quote
Global Moderator TnRiver46 Posted November 15, 2024 Global Moderator Posted November 15, 2024 3 hours ago, JHoss said: Kayak derbies typically do a Catch, Photo, Release format and you have to enable location on your phone when taking the photo. That way there's a time and location stamp to know it was taken on the tournament waters during tournament hours. In the photo, you have to display an identifier code that's only released the day of the event. On some larger body of waters there could be 20+ different launch locations, so it could still be hard to prove someone was on the right lake without the location stamp for a situation like that too. My phone thinks I’m in Nashville . Since the day I bought it! Changed the setting and it defaults back to Nashville every single time. Total nightmare when looking up parts at work Quote
Super User GaryH Posted November 15, 2024 Super User Posted November 15, 2024 I can’t say or even imply that someone is cheating without knowing all the facts. But I’ve never fished a tournament that the TD or any other official was in the competition. The line where it says that the decision of the tournament official on all matters is final should eliminate them from participating. Quote
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