A Pro Angler Voices Concerns About FFS

[TnRiver46]

7 minutes ago, ol'crickety said:

I so want to believe that @TnRiver46 is right when he wrote that our activities can't kill a fishery, but as a kid, I saw other anglers ruin a beloved pond. They began with stringers of 17" bass and then removed stringers of 14" bass and then stringers of 9" bass. At that point, we simply quit going. 

 

And when I was a kid, we watched Jacques Cousteau specials, where he'd call the oceans "inexhaustible," again and again. 

 

Well, in merely my lifetime, Cousteau has been proven wrong again and again, as trawlers with sonar decimate many species.

 

So, when you accept that we can have an effect, from farm ponds to oceans, we need to carefully consider new technologies. 

Oh you can definitely ruin a pond with a rod and reel . Ponds don’t count 😂 

 

granted it will rebound but yes that’s a different ballgame 

 

and most pond managers will say you have to harvest anything under 2 lbs so it’s a delicate balance. But in our world in TN a pond is not a natural thing. They only exist after a bulldozer was present 

 

remember in my post you are referencing I said “unless you build a dam” . Thats why I mentioned beavers as well

[Pat Brown]

Thankfully nobody is commercially fishing our public lakes and never will, so that's really not going to happen. But I appreciate Mr. Cousteau and everyone who is a little bit worried. 

 

Places that it could potentially have had an effect maybe 50 years ago would have been places like the Great Lakes- but even that is not really commercially fished like it once was. 

 

The people who pretend to be commercial fishermen down South are definitely the crappie fisherman and they are getting the light shined on them right now. So it's like the DNR is doing what it is supposed to do.

 

I honestly wish more people were able to catch bass at the ponds I fish - ain't nobody culling nothing out of those places - despite some magnificently, bizarre and cunning efforts that I've seen over the years!  😂😂😂

[gimruis]

24 minutes ago, ol'crickety said:

So, when you accept that we can have an effect, from farm ponds to oceans, we need to carefully consider new technologies. 

 

I was going to comment earlier about over fishing examples in saltwater but he responded that he was specifically referring to freshwater fishing, and bass fishing in general more specifically.

 

We've clearly over fished and over harvested species of salmon, cod, and other desirable ocean-dwelling species of fish.  That's why they're so strictly controlled with a harvest quota now.  But those are commerical fishing operations primarily using nets and it doesn't represent how we bass fish (or target other species of freshwater game fish for that matter).

[Mobasser]

My dad used to say," we can't stand in the way of progress". Time will tell how this will all play out. In the meantime, as I've said before, I hope it doesn't divide us any more than it has already.

[Swamp Girl]

5 minutes ago, Mobasser said:

In the meantime, as I've said before, I hope it doesn't divide us any more than it has already.

 

Amen. Buying torpedoes to sink anglers with FFS has me living on Ramen. Torpedoes are expensive! 

[Zcoker]

I know quite a few folks who say they don’t play the lottery because it’s gambling but I bet if they played it and won 20 million bucks they’d change their beat instantly! FFS is kinda like that. Some anglers don’t wanna use it but if they won a big tournament with it they’d be dancing in the street! 

 

 

 

[webertime]

Instinct Anglers vs. Tech Anglers. 

 

I live on a Mecca for bass fishing (Champlain).  The guys that used to smoke everyone still do well, but the 20lb bags they catch aren't as "rare" anymore with FFS.  That's what we are seeing it's the dilution of the results.  20lbs a day didn't get a check in the recent Toyota up here.  Steroids, data and fitness diluted Baseball stats, it is what it is.

 

Now the whole belief that you are either or Have to be, one or the other is bs...  Local stick Labelle (won BASS opens, Toyotas, etc) is in his mid 40s and figured out ffs in the last year or 2.  I love this guy but hes not a technological person at all... Dude was/is 100000% an instinct fisherman and now he's figured the tech out.  He believed in himself and kept an open mind.

 

I hear a lot from over 30 (40) year Olds that they can't figure out the tech.  The same way people did when cell phones, apps, etc came out.  Part of that is belief in yourself and the ability to learn.  It's easier to say something is (wrong,bad, stupid, I can't) when you have already had a defeatist mindset.  

 

Like all tech, the companies will streamline the interfaces and displays and people will get it better, leveling the playing field where most everyone will be a tech guy...  That's where the instinct guys will rise to the top again.

 

 

Ffs and fish populations I'm not glowing on that.  ~10% of catch and release fish die (immediately or hours after).  Now if more fish are caught especially the ones that were never pursued (palagic smallies) the total number of dead fish goes up.  More dead breeders combined with other environmental issues (on Champlain it's pollution and the Tench) can really hurt reproduction rates and that's scary to me.  It's exponentially worse for ice fishing.

 

Industry?   Pshhhhh not going anywhere someone will always buy a firetiger rapala.

[gimruis]

11 minutes ago, webertime said:

It's exponentially worse for ice fishing.

 

I realize that this is mostly a thread about bass fishing and bass fishing in tournaments, but to see the real advantage that livescope has, try it on the ice.  Or muskie fishing.

 

The problem with ice fishing is that its strictly a harvest thing.  98% are not releasing their catch of crappies or sunfish.  At least in the bass (and muskie) realm, the fish are released.

 

The only thing that might alter this is more and more fake winters.  Shorter, warmer winters like the ones we've been having here in the north reduce the number of people on the ice.

[TnRiver46]

I could really go for a fake winter this year. My shovel took a beating in January 

[gimruis]

Just now, TnRiver46 said:

I could really go for a fake winter this year. My shovel took a beating in January 

 

You had more snow in Tennessee than we had in Minnesota!

[TnRiver46]

5 hours ago, Susky River Rat said:

If flashers are the same as FFS I should be the next Justin hamner when If I’d put FFS on my boat. 

Ok mister hamner you are currently stuck in 61st place on Champlain, let’s pick up the pace a bit! 😂 

 

I jest, I like me some hamner. He was running a zero turn mower while fishing the tours until a couple years ago, I’ve ran those for many years so I can relate 

[1984isNOW]

On 8/5/2024 at 2:07 PM, Bankc said:

I find it funny that trolling is against the rules, but FFS isn't.

I'm still catching up on the 6 pages, but I've been making this point since FFS entered mainstream competition. 

 

FFS is searching for fish with technology, trolling is searching for fish with fishing... Uuhhhh

 

Also, they banned the Umbrella Rig and the reasoning stated was:

 

"Rules Committee members believe the rig eliminates some of the skill that should be required in tournament competition at the highest level... 

 

 A Rules Committee member added, “I don’t have a problem with the use of umbrella rigs or multi-lure rigs to catch bass. If you are out fun fishing, there may be nothing more fun to use. However, our events represent the highest level of professionalism in our sport and I think as participants of these events, we should be held to a higher standard, as well."

 

FFS absolutely eliminates some of the skill that should be required in tournament competition at the highest level. 

 

This is precisely the point - we are talking about professional level competition. This is why boxers can't put weights in their gloves, you can't cork a baseball bat, can't use glue on your hands in football. 

 

The point is preserving the sport, just like they said they banned Alabama rig for. 

 

Go use your FFS all day and night and catch teeners, just don't do it in a professional competition. 

 

Do you think we should allow trolling? 

[TnRiver46]

I should probably point out in all such threads: it takes way more skill to find and catch fish on live sonar than it does to work your way down a bank and cast at targets. If you don’t believe it , try it. 

[gimruis]

1 minute ago, TnRiver46 said:

I should probably point out in all such threads: it takes way more skill to find and catch fish on live sonar than it does to work your way down a bank and cast at targets. If you don’t believe it , try it. 

I don’t disagree with that at all.

 

But that’s not really where FFS excels. It’s better in deeper water offshore. Where visual targets don’t really exist.

[Swamp Girl]

Good point, @TnRiver46, and good counterpoint, @gimruis. However, casting accurately at targets takes a lot of skill with the lure weight, wind speed and direction, distance, and obstacles like overhanging trees shifting. 

[TnRiver46]

It does, but imagine casting at a target that is moving swiftly 20 feet under water 

[Tennessee Boy]

On 8/9/2024 at 7:25 AM, 1984isNOW said:

FFS absolutely eliminates some of the skill that should be required in tournament competition at the highest level.

What skills does FFS eliminate?
and for that matter what skills does an Alabama rig eliminate?

 

On 8/9/2024 at 7:25 AM, 1984isNOW said:

Do you think we should allow trolling? 

Personally,  yes.  It requires special skills and I admire anyone who is good at it.  I don’t think it is used much by non tournament bass fishermen so I doubt you would see it much in tournaments if it was allowed.  I would love to watch a trolling master catch fish on a live stream.  I don’t know the reason trolling was banned back in the day.  To me trolling didn’t make sense when competitors were paired together but that’s no longer a problem.

 

[Woody B]

8 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

What skills does FFS eliminate?

 

Many people who have never used it thinks you simply turn it on and fish start jumping in the boat.   

 

 

I saw part of a video the other day.  It was some young guy, and some old guy.  (I don't keep up with these people.  I'm jealous of all of them.  They get to fish, instead of working LOL)   

 

The old guy said the young guy should "put on his big boy panties" and learn to fish without FFS.   The young guy said the old guy should "put on his big boy panties" and learn to use FFS.   

[MassBass]

In regards to population stock, rod and reel anglers can absolutely make a difference. They found for sure that sport fisherman (including c&r) were having an impact on migratory stripers. Every beach, every river mouth, an angler here, an angler there, it adds up especially with high catch and release mortality and unenforced poaching. They made an emergency change to the recreational limit. 

 

I had to come back to this thread because I had an outing over the weekend that made it hit home. I set off on foot further downstream to the Muddy River tributary. The second bridge I passed, there was a couple folks in a 'bass' boat, heads down on screens, flipping around on the pillars. It looked more like a computerboat. After the long stroll in the heat and sun, I get to my hole in the wall tributary. There is a bass boat sitting right there on the tributary, two guys with eyes on screens, flipping sticko's at the hole in the wall. So I'll tell ya what I did. I walked right down to the side, nailed a perfect cast with my black/black spinner bait, and fought and landed a nice small mouth about 2lbs. Took a selfie than released it and left, laughing. 

 

The next spot I hit there was a computerboat just pushing off. He says, yes, there is a tournament today. Then he tells me the river is filled with alewives, he sees em on his graph. I say, 'well they were here in early spring, are you sure it isn't yellow perch? He just looked down at the graph and got further out of earshot. Then I pulled a real solid 3lb Lm out of that spot under the bridge he just left. 

 

Picked up another nice bass in a shady spot that a bass boat probably couldn't reach. This tournament was probably running more computers than MIT. Let go of your feelings, your failures, your success, stunt your instincts and disobey your intuition- just look at the screen and flip a stick o.

[1984isNOW]

On 8/6/2024 at 9:08 PM, JayMac89 said:

I can't think of a single sport that has had a tech advancement that essentially does the job for you. Not even close. 

You no longer have to go fishing to find a fish, you can just drive around and find fish. Without fishing. 

 

And you right about the kayak scene, I thought I'd get into some local kayak tourneys, until I saw that I would need to drop 4 grand on electronics to be able to have a fair competition. I be out there casting at nothing while dudes be like "I can see there's no fish here, I'm moving on" 

 

On 8/6/2024 at 9:08 PM, JayMac89 said:

It's not even a sport at that point. It may be the price to play, but what are we playing?

 

 

On 8/7/2024 at 6:39 AM, Woody B said:

how easy it makes it to catch Bass.  

It's not that it makes it easy to catch fish, it makes it easy to givefind where fish aren't, and easy to find where fish are. And it does make it easier to dial in your lure selection and retrieve... So actually I take it back, it absolutely makes it easier (doesn't make it easy) to catch bass. 

 

I was fishing with a buddy who has it, but I didn't have it. He would point out where he saw fish on the scope, we would both cast. But he could see what the fish were doing and make adjustments mid retrieve, and he would get the bites. Then he would let me catch one, by describing what I should while he was watching the scope and then I could pause or twitch at precise times and entice bites. 

 

It takes the fishing out of fishing, which is a guess and check activity. It helps to put the fish into the barrel so you can fish for them. 

On 8/7/2024 at 9:41 AM, Tennessee Boy said:

showed us where off shore structure was that was previously unknown.

But they didn't have a gold star with a little "you're here" and then little red stars where all the fish were, that's the difference. Pros used to have to go and search for the treasure, they had to fish to find fish, now they get the treasure map marked with an "X" 

[1984isNOW]

On 8/7/2024 at 10:40 AM, Choporoz said:

Forget about seasonal patterns, migrations, structure, cover, etc.  He moves until he finds an area with fish.  Then, by studying their reactions, he can quickly determine preferred bait size, type, color, action, etc.  In no time, he knows more about how to fish today than most of us learn in several hours. 

This is the skill that it eliminates @Tennessee Boy

On 8/7/2024 at 12:49 PM, Fried Lemons said:

Skill expression in fishing comes from knowledge of how to find fish and how to get them to bite. FFS drastically reduces the difficulty in finding fish which is more than half the battle

 

On 8/7/2024 at 1:02 PM, Tennessee Boy said:

Where do you draw the line in tournaments?

The line should be not having to fish while being a professional tournament fisherman, any technology that means you literally don't have to fish should not be allowed. 

 

Clearly my contention is less about over harvesting, aside from @ol'crickety 's point about damaging reproduction during the spawn, but professional level competition has always created boundaries that protect the integrity of the sport. 

[1984isNOW]

On 8/7/2024 at 1:20 PM, AlabamaSpothunter said:

Remove FFS from Keith Carson's boat... does he still win based on... any other technology you want to name?   

 

... easily no.    He's had all those technologies minus maybe 360 in the past, why couldn't he utilize them for a win before now if they're all equally as powerful. 

Just quoted for emphasis 

On 8/7/2024 at 1:20 PM, AlabamaSpothunter said:

I'm still supposed to believe that the A-Rig and Double Fluke Rig pose more of fair chase problem than live sonar

Dude, that would be cheating because it eliminates some of the skill required that should be present at professional tournament level competition, at least according to BASS haha

[1984isNOW]

On 8/8/2024 at 8:19 AM, ol'crickety said:

... of 17" bass ...then removed stringers of 14" bass... then... 9" bass. At that point, we simply quit going. 

I watched a local body of water so over harvested I couldn't even catch a sunfish. I saw people taking buckets full of everything they caught with absolutely no descrimination - every size bass, gill, eel, anything... absolutely devestated the  ecosystem. 

[1984isNOW]

16 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

it takes way more skill to find and catch fish on live sonar than it does to work your way down a bank and cast at targets. If you don’t believe it , try it.

"way more skill"? Nah bro, I didn't even know the fish had taken my bait yet and my buddy just said set the hook... I caught that fish that he saw take my lure. I might've felt it and set the hook eventually, but it also coulda spit it out and I never woulda knew - without FFS I wouldn't have just randomly set the hook on a subtle in felt bite. 

 

It takes skill to recognize water level, temp, wind, sun angle, casting angle, which part of the water column to hit, how fast to move the lure, when to "move on," where in relation to the shore and cover the bass are hanging... 

 

I targeted outside weed edges and caught bass on a spinnerbait, I targeted docks and caught on a buzzbait, I saw the water level and fished offshore where I could see the depth about the same and caught on spinnerbait and Ned rig. Dude I was fishing with basically just drove around looking for bass and casting a jig head and plastic all day. He crushed my numbers because he didn't have to waste the time I did when he could see there were no fish. He could see when to pop or twitch or pause or set the hook. 

 

Again, I don't care in real life, but for professional level competition... It's a stain on the sport like using a drone camera to hunt. 

[Tennessee Boy]

@1984isNOW I respect your opinion.  I think you have some misconceptions about how the technology works that are not that important but your opinion that you should have to fish to find fish in a tournament is logical.  I would just point out that pros have been using Fish Finders to find fish for decades and before that they were using flashers.  There were stories of pros spending their entire practice time graphing without making a cast long before FFS existed.  
 

In real life you don’t care if I choose to use the technology and I don’t care if you choose not to.  That’s cool.

 

The tournament organizations have to choose their rules.  They will not be able to please everyone.  I’ll still enjoy watching them if they put some limits on the technology but I would prefer to watch them fish the way I do.