The impact of forward facing Sonar on the sport has been a hot topic on this forum and elsewhere.  Major League Fishing’s Bass Pro Tour 2025 rule that limited forward facing sonar (FFS) to one of the three periods each competition day created a straightforward way to gauge the technology’s real impact. The season is over and the results are in. I’ve run the numbers for the entire field and compared the average of all FFS periods to the average of all non-FFS periods across the season. The question was simple: when FFS is allowed, how much more weight do anglers bring in on average and who actually uses FFS to their advantage?

 

Across the entire season, FFS periods produced 27% more weight than non-FFS periods. In actual weight,  FFS periods on average produced 2 lb 12 oz more weight than non-FFS period average. That’s a meaningful amount in a tournament where every fish counts, but it’s not the automatic, sport-ending dominance some claim.

 

The advantage was far from uniform across events. In Stage 1 at Lake Conroe, the field averaged +143% more weight during FFS periods. in Stage 6 on the Potomac River, FFS periods averaged –5% less weight versus non-FFS periods. If Stage 1 is excluded, the season-long FFS advantage drops from 27% to 13%.

 

 

The advantage also varied greatly between anglers. The Top 10 in the Angler of the Year (AOY) race averaged +53% more weight in their FFS periods relative to their non-FFS periods. Meanwhile, the Bottom 10 in AOY averaged -19% less weight in their FFS periods relative to their non-FFS periods. Notably, the top three in AOY were also the biggest FFS gainers: Drew Gill (+169%), Jake Lawrence (+89%), and Jacob Wheeler (+74%).  The takeaway is clear: FFS is powerful, but only if you know how to take advantage of it.

 

Another very surprising finding was that FFS usage did not increase the size of the fish caught.  The average weight of the fish caught during FFS periods was less than an ounce more than the average weight of fish caught during non-FFS periods.  This held true regardless of how I looked at the data.  In all tournaments and among all anglers there was no meaningful difference in the size of the fish caught during FFS periods.

 

So has FFS “ruined the sport”? The numbers don’t say that. They say FFS delivers a real, measurable advantage on average, can swing events when it’s the dominant factor, and—most importantly—separates anglers who are proficient with the technology. If you plan to rely on it, plan to practice. The technology won’t outfish your decisions, but it can reward the right ones.

 

So what do you think?  Are the numbers what you expected?  Has your opinion changed now that we have real data showing the impact FFS is having on the sport?  What do you think the MLF policy on FFS usage should be going forward?

My opinion hasnt changed FFS should be allowed at all times.

Checked my source Microsoft AI and I'm totally skeptical about your results. That's all I will say.

Good Fishing

4 minutes ago, GreenTrout said:

Checked my source Microsoft AI and I'm totally skeptical about your results. That's all I will say.

Good Fishing

I would be happy to address your skepticism but you will have to say more.

48 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Across the entire season, FFS periods produced 27% more weight than non-FFS periods......FFS usage did not increase the size of the fish caught. The average weight of the fish caught during FFS periods was less than an ounce more than the average weight of fish caught during non-FFS periods.

 

In your "analysis", you left out how many fish were caught per period.  However, the information I quoted above is unassailable evidence that anglers who use FFS catch more fish than those who do not. 

 

Ergo, yes, it has ruined the "sport" of bass fishing.

9 hours ago, Glenn said:

 

In your "analysis", you left out how many fish were caught per period.  However, the information I quoted above is unassailable evidence that anglers who use FFS catch more fish than those who do not. 

 

Ergo, yes, it has ruined the "sport" of bass fishing.

Although my evidence is far from unassailable,  I feel strongly that anglers who use BassResource.com catch more fish than those who do not.

 

Has  bassresource.com has ruined the "sport" of bass fishing?  😆

 

Here are the numbers per period for the entire season.

Average Number Caught Per Period with FFS: 5.22
Average Number Caught Per Period with Without FFS: 4.18
 

I don't care about FFS. It is something I will never be able to afford, and even if I could afford it I would not use it. That is just personal preference. I will say that while I don't think it has "ruined" the sport, it has, for me, ruined watching tournament fishing when it is in use. Again, just my personal preference. 

Interesting. It's pretty much what I expected.

 

I don't know what the answer to FFS is. I used to think it's killing the sport, but now I ain't so sure. I think that bass will eventually become conditioned to it, and thus, it won't be as big of a factor.

 

As the technology improves, it'll become easier for those that can't currently capitalize on FFS to utilize it, thus leveling the playing field again.

I'd like to see total day bans on it. So, if you fish 2 days... then allow it only on 1 day. Or have every other tournament ban it completely.

12 hours ago, Bazoo said:

Interesting. It's pretty much what I expected.

 

I don't know what the answer to FFS is. I used to think it's killing the sport, but now I ain't so sure. I think that bass will eventually become conditioned to it, and thus, it won't be as big of a factor.

 

As the technology improves, it'll become easier for those that can't currently capitalize on FFS to utilize it, thus leveling the playing field again.

I'd like to see total day bans on it. So, if you fish 2 days... then allow it only on 1 day. Or have every other tournament ban it completely.

Well said.  I could see the offshore "scoping" that produced the jaw dropping numbers at Conroe getting harder as more people learn to do it and the fish get conditioned to seeing minnows shaking around them all winter.  On the other hand,  if the entire field had been as good with the technology as the top half,  the FFS numbers would have been higher.  

Wait until someone does a study regarding FFS & live bait fishing to determine if it positively contributes to larger fish being caught than without it. 

25 minutes ago, Dwight Hottle said:

Wait until someone does a study regarding FFS & live bait fishing to determine if it positively contributes to larger fish being caught than without it. 

I would imagine if the BPT was still using the best 5 fish format you would see a difference in the size of the fish caught with FFS.  When every fish counts there's no need to chase the biggest fish just target any over the size limit.

4 hours ago, Dwight Hottle said:

Wait until someone does a study regarding FFS & live bait fishing to determine if it positively contributes to larger fish being caught than without it. 

I have wondered about this myself.  I have heard nothing about anglers using live bait and FFS where it is legal.  No You Tube videos, no pictures on Facebook, I have found nothing.  I'm sure there must be some savvy trophy hunters somewhere, that have been crushing it and keeping their mouths shut about their success.  

Thanks for compiling and posting.

 

I think one takeaway is that it's impact is generally positive, but the scale of it's impact is very situational.  Cold water on a southern reservoir it can be like a cheat-code....But summertime on a tidal river it could be a distraction and actually end up hurting you (as a Potomac local I was happy to see those numbers).  

 

My personal opinion is unchanged.  I have it, I use it, and enjoy catching fishing with it ...But I think some of the things it allows anglers to do (or in some cases, not do) is in direct opposition to many of the things that make bass fishing great.  I have no idea what to do about it, but my gut feeling is that it's just on the the other side the line in the sand, for me anyway.  

 

I will say, it is awful for co-anglers.  I fished a tournament recently where it was hot, no wind, no clouds, 90 degree clear water... I weighed in a good bag of almost 17lbs, while my co angler had only a single small fish.  I was on the screen all day and he just never had a chance.  

 

Cool information to look at for sure, I bet this gets picked up by more than just BR 😉

I'd be curious to see this same data from last year's (and 2023's) tournaments as well as if BASS elites did somethign similar but we unfortunately don't have it.  Like noted above, my conclusions on this are:

 

- it puts a greater disparity between the haves and have nots in some cases.  If you know how to find fish already and are on them, then FFS will allow you to maximize the amount you catch. If you don't know how to find them in the first place and/or don't have a good strategy for the 4 days, then it doesn't matter if you have it or not.

- Corrolary- the anglers who are good with it are really good with it.  When some guys are doubling their period weights and some guys are catching LESS weight with it, that tells me that the bottom guys are using it to hope and pray.

- Venue matters as does time of year.  This goes to my wanting the past years' data.  This is also pretty obvious without the data and is known to the organizers of both tours given the location choices they made this year.  Early season prespawn/late winter fish are particularly susceptible- they are often schooled and/or doing the same things, they are chasing bait and feeding up for the spawn (previously known to happen, but hard to target at times), and the vegetation hasn't grown up yet to hide the fish.  Contrast to Harris chain or the Potomac which don't set up great as FFS fisheries (or with currently known FFS techniques).  If you fished a northern highland reservoir in early April I'm sure you'd see the same as you do on Conroe, Fork, and the rest- lots of FFS for school chasers and open water roamers.  I've seen it on my own lakes in the past but didn't have the ability to capitalize.  This spring will be different (didn't have the boat in 24 and couldn't fish spring '25).  

 

My opinion as an angler doesn't change- I have it and will continue to have it.  Sometimes I just want to beat the bank and I ignore it.  Sometimes the fish aren't there or aren't cooperating and I'll go offshore and scope around.  Sometimes I want to use it.  For me, it is another way to fish and I'll use it situationally.

 

My opinion on it in tournaments mostly doesn't change.  I think it should be allowed (fully, not just in 1 period) and I think the organizers should choose the venues and times of year so that in some cases it is in play and in some it isn't.  That said, the 1 period in 3 does add an element of strategy and also limits how far the guys who can really use it can get ahead.  I'm not opposed to that continuing, not because I think it ruins the fishing but because I think it adds a strategic element that wasn't there before.  BASS can't do it since they don't have periods like that of course.  

 

On 8/11/2025 at 9:23 PM, GreenTrout said:

Checked my source Microsoft AI and I'm totally skeptical about your results. That's all I will say.

Good Fishing

 

Always be skeptical of an AI tool that is drawing information from the internet regardless of topic.

 

I would love to see what the AI tool is saying to contradict the above data given that the data is actual data compiled from official results directly related to the topic.

 

18 hours ago, Dwight Hottle said:

Wait until someone does a study regarding FFS & live bait fishing to determine if it positively contributes to larger fish being caught than without it. 

 

14 hours ago, king fisher said:

I have wondered about this myself.  I have heard nothing about anglers using live bait and FFS where it is legal.  No You Tube videos, no pictures on Facebook, I have found nothing.  I'm sure there must be some savvy trophy hunters somewhere, that have been crushing it and keeping their mouths shut about their success.  

 

I agree on both counts.  Kinda how the big swimbait guys held it in as long as possible until Ben Milliken started sharing videos and the cat was out of the bag.  I will be taking some 'nieces' fishing in a couple weeks and using FFS plus live shiners.  we'll be looking more for crappie and hybrids but I'm sure bass will be around.  I can't imaging a live shiner swimming on its own very near a cruising bass won't get crushed.  

Just came across this vid (no idea who he is) that has the numbers supposedly provided directly by MLF and introducing a new category - “FFS on and used.” Might be interesting to compare to your stats. Just screen shotted the pertinent part.

 

2 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Just came across this vid (no idea who he is) that has the numbers supposedly provided directly by MLF and introducing a new category - “FFS on and used.” Might be interesting to compare to your stats. Just screen shotted the pertinent part.

 

I will run the numbers to see if my information matches his.  I’m not home now but will post my results later.

 

Starting in 2024 the officials recorded with each fish if in their opinion FFS was used.  MLF did not make this into available until after the 2025 season began.  I captured this info but did not use it in any of these calculations.   It seems that each official does it differently.  It’s still interesting information though.  
 

There is a lot of noise in all of this data.   I counted every fish caught during an FFS as using FFS.   Clearly many anglers take their FFS period but don’t use it.  Also,  

there are tournaments like Stage 2 where a large portion of the field made long runs before they started fishing.  This was done during non FFS periods.  Then there are anglers that stop fishing if they are confident they have made it to the next round.  All of this affects the numbers.   
 

Being a data geek I love this kind of stuff.  

2 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I will run the numbers to see if my information matches his.  I’m not home now but will post my results later.

 

Starting in 2024 the officials recorded with each fish if in their opinion FFS was used.  MLF did not make this into available until after the 2025 season began.  I captured this info but did not use it in any of these calculations.   It seems that each official does it differently.  It’s still interesting information though.  
 

There is a lot of noise in all of this data.   I counted every fish caught during an FFS as using FFS.   Clearly many anglers take their FFS period but don’t use it.  Also,  

there are tournaments like Stage 2 where a large portion of the field made long runs before they started fishing.  This was done during non FFS periods.  Then there are anglers that stop fishing if they are confident they have made it to the next round.  All of this affects the numbers.   
 

Being a data geek I love this kind of stuff.  

Is information available that quantifies the amount of time an angler has ‘stopped’ fishing?  Is this something the tournament staff captures?  It seems to me that actual ‘time spent fishing’ would provide a more accurate picture of catch rates attributable to FFS v. non-FFS.  

One thing to think about is some of these guys are only making casts at bass using FFS that they think are big enough. Not just casting casting casting hoping. 
 

as far as the live bait and FFS? 100% is done and works well. 
 

I still do not want it. I still do not think it has a place in fishing. Those who have it go have at it. It’s legal.  Not my glass of beer. 

@Team9nine  The guy in the picture you posted looks like the guy on Bass Talk Live that they call BTC.  I have not tried to find the video where he is talking about these numbers but I will look for it.  They had the guy who does the numbers for MLF on Bass Talk Live so I'm guessing he got his numbers from him and they should be good numbers.  Here are my numbers,  they are off by a little.  My numbers show some discrepancies in the MLF numbers that I'm not sure how they addressed in his numbers.

 

My Numbers

Bass Caught During FFS Periods:  5431  (Matches his number)

Bass Caught During FFS Periods using FFS: 4355  (3 less than his number)

Bass Caught in Non-FFS Periods not using FFS:  11555 (2 more than his number)

Bass Caught in Non-FFS Periods using FFS:  75. (He doesn't show this number)

 

So you are probably wondering why fish were caught using FFS during non FFS periods.  I wondered the same thing.  The MLF website clearly shows this.  One example:  Stage 3-Day 1  Luke Clausen's FFS period was period 2.  His first fish at 6:55AM (in Period 1) is shown as using FFS.  I assume the official entered it wrong.  I don't think Clausen was cheating.  I see a lot of what appears to be errors in the extra information they enter about each catch.  It doesn't affect the outcome so they are probably not as diligent when entering it.  I wish they would put more effort into getting that stuff right - it's a gold mine of good info - I just wish I had more trust in its accuracy.

 

1 hour ago, OldManLure said:

Is information available that quantifies the amount of time an angler has ‘stopped’ fishing?  Is this something the tournament staff captures?  It seems to me that actual ‘time spent fishing’ would provide a more accurate picture of catch rates attributable to FFS v. non-FFS.

No it would be hard to quantify when they stop fishing.  They usually keep scouting more spots and may make a few cast in the process.   They also might start fishing again if they start feeling less confident in where they stand.

 

@Team9nine  I FORGOT MENTION THAT I NOTICED WHEN JACOB WHEELER GAVE YOU A SHOUTOUT DURING HIS VICTORY SPEECH ON SUNDAY!

10 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

@Team9nine  The guy in the picture you posted looks like the guy on Bass Talk Live that they call BTC.  I have not tried to find the video where he is talking about these numbers but I will look for it.

Guy’s channel is ‘Get Ur Fish On’ and he credits a guy named Joseph at FLW for getting him the data. Should be easy to find. Short video that literally just explains the data in the screen shot…

 

13 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

@Team9nine  I FORGOT MENTION THAT I NOTICED WHEN JACOB WHEELER GAVE YOU A SHOUTOUT DURING HIS VICTORY SPEECH ON SUNDAY!

Yeah, ‘BJ’, the other guy mentioned, was my tourney partner and fellow club member (“Bryan and Brian”). The shoutouts are always cool when they happen 😎

6 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Just came across this vid (no idea who he is) that has the numbers supposedly provided directly by MLF and introducing a new category - “FFS on and used.” Might be interesting to compare to your stats. Just screen shotted the pertinent part.

 

I’d trust @Tennessee Boy over that fella 😂 

28 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I’d trust @Tennessee Boy over that fella 😂 

Fo sure. He has an untrustworthy mustache.

Precisely 😂 

 

a drama only YouTube fishing page, what more could you ask for ? 

19 hours ago, casts_by_fly said:

I'd be curious to see this same data from last year's (and 2023's) tournaments as well as if BASS elites did somethign similar but we unfortunately don't have it.  Like noted above, my conclusions on this are:

 

- it puts a greater disparity between the haves and have nots in some cases.  If you know how to find fish already and are on them, then FFS will allow you to maximize the amount you catch. If you don't know how to find them in the first place and/or don't have a good strategy for the 4 days, then it doesn't matter if you have it or not.

- Corrolary- the anglers who are good with it are really good with it.  When some guys are doubling their period weights and some guys are catching LESS weight with it, that tells me that the bottom guys are using it to hope and pray.

- Venue matters as does time of year.  This goes to my wanting the past years' data.  This is also pretty obvious without the data and is known to the organizers of both tours given the location choices they made this year.  Early season prespawn/late winter fish are particularly susceptible- they are often schooled and/or doing the same things, they are chasing bait and feeding up for the spawn (previously known to happen, but hard to target at times), and the vegetation hasn't grown up yet to hide the fish.  Contrast to Harris chain or the Potomac which don't set up great as FFS fisheries (or with currently known FFS techniques).  If you fished a northern highland reservoir in early April I'm sure you'd see the same as you do on Conroe, Fork, and the rest- lots of FFS for school chasers and open water roamers.  I've seen it on my own lakes in the past but didn't have the ability to capitalize.  This spring will be different (didn't have the boat in 24 and couldn't fish spring '25).  

 

My opinion as an angler doesn't change- I have it and will continue to have it.  Sometimes I just want to beat the bank and I ignore it.  Sometimes the fish aren't there or aren't cooperating and I'll go offshore and scope around.  Sometimes I want to use it.  For me, it is another way to fish and I'll use it situationally.

 

My opinion on it in tournaments mostly doesn't change.  I think it should be allowed (fully, not just in 1 period) and I think the organizers should choose the venues and times of year so that in some cases it is in play and in some it isn't.  That said, the 1 period in 3 does add an element of strategy and also limits how far the guys who can really use it can get ahead.  I'm not opposed to that continuing, not because I think it ruins the fishing but because I think it adds a strategic element that wasn't there before.  BASS can't do it since they don't have periods like that of course.  

 

 

Always be skeptical of an AI tool that is drawing information from the internet regardless of topic.

 

I would love to see what the AI tool is saying to contradict the above data given that the data is actual data compiled from official results directly related to the topic.

 

 

 

I agree on both counts.  Kinda how the big swimbait guys held it in as long as possible until Ben Milliken started sharing videos and the cat was out of the bag.  I will be taking some 'nieces' fishing in a couple weeks and using FFS plus live shiners.  we'll be looking more for crappie and hybrids but I'm sure bass will be around.  I can't imaging a live shiner swimming on its own very near a cruising bass won't get crushed.  

You don’t need FFS to be able to find or catch LMB, the Golden shiners fear signature is the most powerful locater in the waterway. 
Wild shiners have that fear response and hybrid shiners don’t. Farm raised shiners are ok, they work, sometimes. But wild shiners are worth the effort to cast net for them or just pony up and pay the exorbitant prices they garner. 
 

I know a lot of  crappie fishermen lean on it hard. I can see where that would be useful. 
 

BTW, best of times fishing with your nieces..

@Tennessee Boy my only question is…what do you do for a living? If you aren’t compiling data I think you missed your calling. 😁